In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews dance artist Devin Hill. Devin describes their experience growing up with a rare eye condition and how it affected their motor skills. Their mother put them in dance to help with balance and coordination. Devin shares their experience pursuing dance in college and learning to be an advocate for themself as a dancer with a disability by communicating their needs. They share how change often starts with just having people with disabilities be in the room. Devin reflects on their undergraduate experience and how institutions need to start taking responsibility for making their dance programs accessible and available to students with disabilities. As Devin has become a teacher and taken on leadership roles, they have been empowered by breaking down ableism in dance and giving others an opportunity to directly express what they need.
In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews dance artist Devin Hill. Devin describes their experience growing up with a rare eye condition and how it affected their motor skills. Their mother put them in dance to help with balance and coordination. Devin shares their experience pursuing dance in college and learning to be an advocate for themself as a dancer with a disability by communicating their needs. They share how change often starts with just having people with disabilities be in the room. Devin reflects on their undergraduate experience and how institutions need to start taking responsibility for making their dance programs accessible and available to students with disabilities. As Devin has become a teacher and taken on leadership roles, they have been empowered by breaking down ableism in dance and giving others an opportunity to directly express what they need.
This episode is part of a series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs and individuals who identify as disabled and have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers. This series is part of Silva’s ongoing work as the director of Art Spark Texas’ dance program. This year, she is continuing the multi-year community-engaged research project, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, that explores disability-centered accessibility in dance education and how we can create barrier-free dance education for students with disabilities in the US.
Devin Hill is a graduate from the University of Central Oklahoma with a BFA in Dance Performance. Their love of dance began at the age of three and has lasted more than 20 years. Devin set sights on dance as a career during their time at Collin College in Plano, TX. While at Collin College, they were exposed to jazz, ballet, modern, hip hop, tap, African, improvisation, and Latin ballroom. Devin has had the opportunity of working with Christopher K. Morgan, William “Bill” Evans, Clarence Brooks, Brandon Fink, Hannah Baumgarden, Jeremy Duvall, Gregg Russell, Lachlan McCarthy, Kristin McQuaid, and Cat Cogliandro. They were a member of the 2015-2016 award-winning Kaleidoscope Dance Company. Since graduating from UCO, they have continued to further their knowledge of dance by performing, choreographing, teaching, and participating in intensives and workshops across the US. In 2018, Devin had the honor of performing with Liz Lerman’s Dance Exchange at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts. They were also a cast member on the hit Facebook Watch series “Dance with Nia.” Devin currently resides in Washington D.C. and New York City, where they perform and educate as a member of catastrophe! Dance Company, ReVision Dance Company, and Kinetic Light. Devin also serves as a board member for Feel The Beat and is an educational specialist for Bodywise Dance. Devin strives to use their artistry to create a more safe, equitable, and accessible dance industry for everyone.
00:00:28
Silva
Welcome to DanceCast, the podcast in which I interview people who create inclusive dance all around the world.
00:00:36
Silva
My name is Silva Laukkanen and I am your host.
00:00:48
Silva
Welcome to episode 75.
00:00:50
Silva
It has been great to be back producing these episodes after a couple of years of hiatus.
00:00:58
Silva
This episode is a part of series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs around the world or individuals who identify as disabled and have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers.
00:01:13
Silva
This is a part three.
00:01:15
Silva
This series is also part of my ongoing work as the director of Artspark Texas Dance Program and this year we are continuing our multi year community engaged research projects funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts.
00:01:33
Silva
We explore disability centered accessibility in dance education and how we can create barrier free dance education for students with disabilities in the USA.
00:01:45
Silva
In this episode, I spoke with Devin Hill, who is a graduate from the University of Central Oklahoma with a BFA in dance performance.
00:01:57
Silva
Their love of dance began at the age of three and has lasted a span of 20 years.
00:02:04
Silva
Devin set sights on dance as a career during their time at Colling college in Plano, Texas.
00:02:12
Silva
While at Collin College, they were exposed to jazz, ballet, modern hip hop, tap, african improvisation, and latin ballroom.
00:02:25
Silva
Devin has had the opportunity of working with multiple artists such as Christopher K.
00:02:30
Silva
Morgan, William Bill Evans, Clarence Book Brooks, Brandon Fink, Hannah Baumgarten and others.
00:02:41
Silva
They were also a member of the 2015 to 2016 award winning kaleidoscope Dance Company.
00:02:49
Silva
Since graduating from UCO, they have continued to further their knowledge of dance by performing, choreographing, teaching, and participating in intensives and workshops across the United States.
00:03:03
Silva
In 2018, Devin had the honor of performing with Liz Lehrmans Dance Exchange at the John F.
00:03:10
Silva
Kennedy center for the Performing Arts.
00:03:14
Silva
They were also a cast member on the hit Facebook watch series Dance with NIa.
00:03:20
Silva
Hill currently resides in the Washington, DC and New York City metro areas where they perform and educate.
00:03:28
Silva
As a member of Catastrophe! Dance Company and Revision Dance Company.
00:03:33
Silva
Devin also serves as a board member for Feel the Beat and an educational specialist for a Bodywise Dance.
00:03:43
Silva
Devin strives to use their artistry to create a more safe, equitable and accessible dancery.
00:03:53
Silva
Devin strives to use their artistry to create a more safe, equitable, an accessible Dan industry for everyone.
00:04:03
Silva
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
00:04:06
Silva
Now I totally lost my train of thought though.
00:04:08
Silva
Well, maybe it comes.
00:04:12
Devin
It's okay.
00:04:13
Devin
We can jump on another train.
00:04:14
Silva
There you go.
00:04:15
Silva
Thank you.
00:04:16
Silva
So Devin, thank you for being a guest at the DanceCast.
00:04:20
Silva
It's been on hiatus for like a couple of years due to some personal challenges.
00:04:26
Silva
But I'm so excited to have you as our guest or my guest, and I don't even know quite where to start with you, but I often ask this question, as the first question.
00:04:38
Silva
It's like, how did you end up in a dance world?
00:04:41
Devin
Yeah, I ended up in dance in probably a way that people would consider to be very different.
00:04:52
Devin
I was born with a rare eye condition called achromatopsia, and my mother noticed that when I was about three months old that my eyes were moving in a way that just didn't seem very normal.
00:05:08
Devin
I went through a lot of testing, lot of years of eye doctors, and it wasn't until I was like eleven years old that they diagnosed my condition.
00:05:18
Devin
And so before we got to that point, they noticed that some of my motor skills were delayed.
00:05:25
Devin
Like, I didn't walk at the same time as a lot of my peers.
00:05:30
Devin
And so they didn't really know what was happening and what was actually causing this issue.
00:05:35
Devin
They just knew that I was constantly about like six, seven months behind other children.
00:05:41
Devin
And so when I was three years old, my mom had a conversation with my aunt and my cousin was in dance at the time.
00:05:51
Devin
And so my aunt was like, you know what?
00:05:53
Devin
Maybe if you put Devon in dance, it might help with balance and coordination and everything.
00:05:57
Devin
So I literally started dancing to learn how to walk.
00:06:01
Silva
Wow.
00:06:03
Devin
Yeah.
00:06:03
Devin
Yeah.
00:06:04
Devin
It's a pretty wild story, but I started just like in tap and jazz and everything.
00:06:12
Devin
And over the course, about maybe a year or so, when I went into, I was almost four years old, like, my balance did start getting better and eventually I did start walking and I caught up with my peers.
00:06:25
Devin
But dance really was the beginning of me starting to be able to integrate into the world and to be able to navigate just being a child and developmental navigation as well.
00:06:39
Devin
So, yeah, I literally started dancing to learn how to walk.
00:06:44
Silva
That's really wild and actually wonderful story.
00:06:47
Devin
Yeah, it's a story I love.
00:06:50
Devin
I really do, because to me, it's something so special to know that this art form that is now my life and my career came to me in that way.
00:07:04
Silva
Yeah, it is, really.
00:07:06
Silva
And do you think this trajectory would have been possible for you without the connection to you cousin?
00:07:16
Devin
You know, I don't know if it would have happened simply because at the time, you know, doctors didn't have a lot of information about my condition because it's so rare.
00:07:29
Devin
And so they really told my parents, like, Devin's not going to be able to do contact sports and really, like, just they were afraid that I wouldn't be able to participate in a lot of activities.
00:07:40
Devin
And so I think that if that hadn't have happened, I don't know, like, what I would have done in terms of, like, trying to just be social and active and all of these things because there was this uncertainty of what I was going to be able to do physically because I didn't do things.
00:08:01
Devin
Like, I didn't crawl and all of these things that at that time, you know, doctors are like, well, we don't.
00:08:07
Devin
We don't know.
00:08:08
Devin
We're not sure if your kid's going to be able to walk and how they're going to be able to navigate through the world because there was just so little knowledge.
00:08:18
Devin
So I think that if my aunt hadn't suggested that and I hadn't really kind of gone into something that was so unknown, I don't know.
00:08:27
Devin
I don't know if I would have ended up on this path, but I feel really grateful for it.
00:08:35
Silva
Because you have also graduated from college with the.
00:08:40
Silva
From a dance program, right?
00:08:41
Devin
Yes.
00:08:42
Silva
So where did you go and how did you, like, how did you navigate your disability?
00:08:48
Silva
Like, tell me, because I'm so curious.
00:08:50
Silva
About this, the lack of, like, barrier.
00:08:53
Silva
Free dance education opportunities in the USA for people with disabilities.
00:08:58
Silva
So tell me, like, how did it happen?
00:09:01
Silva
Did you have a teacher who took you under their wing who kind of made the curriculum, like, how all of that ended up happening?
00:09:08
Devin
Yeah.
00:09:09
Devin
So I first went to just a local junior college, just working on all of my general education stuff.
00:09:18
Devin
And that's when I actually came back to dance because I stopped dancing when I was ten years old, because I was bullied by students and educators.
00:09:28
Devin
I actually had a teacher at the time that told me, like, blind people weren't meant to dance.
00:09:34
Devin
So I left dance when I was ten because I just, I was so upset.
00:09:39
Devin
And when you're that young, like, you don't know how to navigate, like, ableism in that way and discrimination.
00:09:46
Devin
And so I stopped dancing until I was about 15, and then I got back into it, just needing an extra, like, extracurricular activity in high school, and I just fell back in love with it again.
00:09:58
Devin
And so when I transferred to the junior college, I was just like, you know, I kind of think I want to take a dance class again.
00:10:04
Devin
And then, like, one class turned into two turned into seven, and I just kind of, like, really reconnected back to that.
00:10:11
Devin
And I feel like the learning how to advocate for myself really started then because I had the support of just kind of like the college and their basic support and access.
00:10:26
Devin
But, of course, like, that only goes so far.
00:10:28
Devin
So in a lot of ways, a lot of those things don't necessarily translate into movement and into dance.
00:10:35
Devin
And so I had to figure out how to take the accommodations that I was given and expand that.
00:10:41
Devin
And so it really started with just giving that baseline communication, having meetings with my professors and just saying, like, these are the details of my disability.
00:10:50
Devin
This is how I learn things.
00:10:52
Devin
This is how I understand things.
00:10:53
Devin
And then it was a process.
00:10:55
Devin
It was a constant process of communication, seeing what worked and what didn't.
00:11:01
Devin
And it challenged me to be able to communicate about my needs.
00:11:08
Devin
And it wasn't always easy, because when you're dealing with people who don't always have an understanding of access and disability, you have to navigate that in the best way that you can.
00:11:19
Devin
And so there were definitely some hard moments of dealing with ableism and discrimination, especially in an art form that is considered, in a lot of ways inherently visual, when in fact it isn't.
00:11:32
Devin
But it's just trying to help people understand that dance was never meant to be something that was exclusive, and that it's something that there's possibilities for everyone to be able to do that.
00:11:46
Devin
And a lot of what I had to do, which is not how it should be, but ultimately, at that point in time, a lot of it was proving it to people.
00:11:56
Devin
Like, people had to see me in a dance class.
00:11:59
Devin
They had to see me on stage.
00:12:00
Devin
They had to see me in a rehearsal process to even be able to fathom that that could be possible.
00:12:07
Devin
And so I really kind of started that process of communication in junior college.
00:12:12
Devin
And then I ended up going to the University of central Oklahoma to finish my degree.
00:12:18
Devin
And when I went there, I was very lucky that this was kind of a lineage school.
00:12:24
Devin
Like, a lot of the professors knew some of my professors at my junior college, so there was a really good connection there.
00:12:31
Devin
And I remember I met with the head of the dance department, and she said, she's like, I want to be honest with you.
00:12:39
Devin
She's like, we never had anyone like you before.
00:12:41
Devin
But however, she's like, this is a learning process for us, and we want you to know that we're here to learn from you and to listen to you and to learn about who you are and to help you be as successful as you can.
00:12:57
Devin
So I feel very fortunate that I went to a program that was so open, and it was really just a continuation of the process I'd already been in in terms of just having to communicate, having to advocate, and also people experiencing and seeing what was possible.
00:13:17
Devin
And so I think through that, it really shifted a lot in terms of how my academic career went.
00:13:24
Devin
And the longer that they spent watching me and experiencing me, the more the world started opening up.
00:13:31
Devin
Like, I became the first visually impaired company member that they ever had on their pre professional dance company.
00:13:38
Devin
Like, things like that had never happened and it was simply because they just never experienced it and they didn't know what to do.
00:13:44
Devin
So I think something that helped with this process was just realizing, like, a lot of people don't know and they don't know because they haven't experienced it.
00:13:53
Devin
And so there's a lot that has to shift in academia to make it more accessible because I dealt with inaccessibility all the time.
00:14:03
Devin
And so there's a lot that has to shift in order to make more accessible spaces in academia for disabled people.
00:14:11
Devin
But I think in a lot of ways it starts with us just being in the room.
00:14:15
Devin
So that's kind of like a long explanation of how I really got through my college experience.
00:14:21
Devin
But I'm grateful for it because I know that change came about because of it and just, oh, that's awesome.
00:14:29
Silva
Yeah, that's.
00:14:32
Silva
I really.
00:14:34
Silva
There's this part, like, every time when I speak with a person who identifies as disabled, who has gone through a formal dance education, there's this huge part of, like, the advocacy and educating your educators about it and how to make the program so that you get the same education than your non disabled peers.
00:14:56
Silva
But it just, it feels like, so heart wrenching in a way that the work is a lot.
00:15:05
Silva
That's a lot of work.
00:15:06
Silva
And, like, how do we, how do we get to a point where you don't have to do that work anymore or people who are going to come after you don't have to do that work anymore?
00:15:17
Silva
And I guess, I mean, one way is that there are these pioneering dance, dance dancers and dance students like you who do the work.
00:15:26
Silva
But can you think of anything else that we could, in this, today's society do to mitigate that job?
00:15:35
Devin
Right?
00:15:36
Devin
Yeah.
00:15:36
Devin
I mean, like, the reality is, is that it's emotional labor, not easy to constantly have to educate people.
00:15:45
Devin
And I think one of the biggest things that has to shift is the understanding that there needs to be a responsibility on the other side to educate themselves.
00:15:55
Devin
And what does that look like?
00:15:57
Devin
And I feel like more so now than ever, there is more education that is available.
00:16:04
Devin
And I think that bigger institutions need to start taking more responsibility for making that education available for their educators.
00:16:14
Devin
Because at the end of the day, like, a lot of these educators don't know that they need to know.
00:16:18
Devin
And so it's like, the resources are out there.
00:16:22
Devin
There are so many organizations and companies that have created access trainings to just help people start to understand, like, the grassroots of what accessibility is and like the ADa and how far does it go and, like, just understanding just the basics of accessibility and then translating that into movement, because that's a whole process and of itself.
00:16:45
Devin
And so I think it's being able to have access to the proper resources to bring it to your educators so that instead of them seeking the knowledge from the disabled person, they're coming in with somewhat of a foundation and understanding that that knowledge never stops.
00:17:06
Devin
And I think that's the most important thing, too, is understanding.
00:17:09
Devin
Like, one of my mentors, Kayla Hamilton, constantly says, like, access is not a checklist.
00:17:13
Devin
And I think that's something that kind of gets in the way of things, too.
00:17:16
Devin
It's just kind of like, oh, if I do x, y and z, I'm accessible, which that's the case.
00:17:22
Devin
Like, accessibility is an ongoing process, so it's creating a system of accountability.
00:17:27
Devin
Like, where are you getting your resources from?
00:17:29
Devin
Where is the education from?
00:17:30
Devin
How are you then implementing that education?
00:17:33
Devin
How are you communicating in real time?
00:17:35
Devin
How are you creating access in real time?
00:17:38
Devin
And then what is the process of accountability going forward and realizing that the things that you learn today, there's gonna be more tomorrow.
00:17:45
Devin
So I think it's having that system of accountability that starts from, we need to educate the top.
00:17:53
Devin
The education doesn't start when a disabled person walks in your room.
00:17:57
Devin
It needs to start before.
00:17:59
Devin
So I really think that that's the basis and the beginning of being able to create more accessible spaces.
00:18:07
Silva
Yeah, yeah, no, it's great.
00:18:09
Silva
And, you know, like, I hear a lot from the professional inclusive dance companies, like, where are the dancers with disabilities?
00:18:16
Silva
Like, I can't.
00:18:17
Silva
Like, I don't have anyone, I don't know anyone who is, like, coming, where are they?
00:18:23
Silva
So I think we have a quite strong.
00:18:26
Silva
Well, it always is in relation to what.
00:18:30
Silva
But we do have a wonderful companies in inclusive dance in the United States who do really great work.
00:18:38
Silva
And it's a shame to think that there is no longer dancers with disabilities coming up who would be part of this work and grow the work and take it forward because of the lack of actual dance education opportunities for people with disabilities.
00:18:57
Devin
The truth is that the disabled dancers are there.
00:19:01
Devin
Like, they are there.
00:19:03
Devin
The part that I think sometimes gets lost in translation is that there's a lot of dancers are scared.
00:19:10
Devin
They don't feel like there's something they can be a part of.
00:19:14
Devin
I mean, I get comments from people all the time on social media saying, like, I didn't know that I could do this.
00:19:21
Devin
I didn't know that I could be a dancer in a wheelchair.
00:19:24
Devin
I didn't know I could be a dancer with a visual impairment, or, I've always wanted to dance, but I was too scared to walk into a class.
00:19:31
Devin
Like, I didn't want to be discriminated against.
00:19:34
Devin
So much of it has to do with, like, ableism that's existing from, like, years and years and years of experiencing this and just thinking, like, I want to dance, but I don't know how, and I don't think that I can.
00:19:46
Devin
And so I feel like that is a reason why this kind of, like, illusion that, like, there are not enough disabled dancers comes from, when in reality there's so many, and there's just so much fear, and it's.
00:19:57
Devin
And that fear is real.
00:19:59
Devin
Like, it's scary even for me now.
00:20:02
Devin
And I've been doing this for years.
00:20:03
Devin
Like, I still get terrified walking into a class with someone I don't know because I don't know how they're going to perceive my disability.
00:20:10
Devin
I don't know how they're going to perceive me.
00:20:12
Devin
And there's always the possibility that someone can label me as, quote, unquote, a bad dancer or for me to have a really negative experience.
00:20:19
Devin
It's happened many times.
00:20:21
Devin
So I understand the fear and the insecurity, because when you don't know if the space you're walking into is accessible or not, then you have every right to feel that way.
00:20:33
Devin
And so I feel like that trying to help to get more of the knowledge out there, like, there are companies that are equitable and accessible, like it exists, it's.
00:20:48
Devin
There is going to help to start to mitigate that fear and to get through it.
00:20:55
Devin
And a lot of it, I think, goes back to representation.
00:20:59
Devin
People aren't seeing disabled answers in mass media, not as much as they should.
00:21:03
Devin
And so it's just like the knowledge is not there.
00:21:08
Devin
Again, the resources, the education, the knowledge, it's not being spread and shared wide enough so that people can see.
00:21:17
Devin
I can be a wheelchair dancer.
00:21:19
Devin
I can do this.
00:21:20
Devin
Like, there is a space for me.
00:21:23
Devin
And I think the moment that these resources and when there's more representation that's being done in a way that is accurately representing disabled people is going to make a big difference in bringing more disabled dancers out into the world.
00:21:40
Devin
They just want to feel safe.
00:21:41
Devin
We want to feel safe.
00:21:43
Devin
That's all we want is to feel safe and seen and supported in dance spaces.
00:21:47
Devin
And it's scary.
00:21:50
Devin
It really is.
00:21:51
Devin
And I think it's time to start to shift that so that there are more disabled dancers who feel like they can come out into the world and be the dancers that they want to be.
00:22:02
Silva
Yes, absolutely.
00:22:05
Silva
Yes.
00:22:06
Silva
But.
00:22:06
Silva
And you are doing also part of that work because you also teach, right?
00:22:10
Silva
So you were talking about the representation.
00:22:12
Silva
So now you are in the leadership role in a classroom dance studio and teaching the class.
00:22:19
Silva
So how would you name the ways in which that representation impacts the learning environment and the whole community?
00:22:30
Devin
It impacts it greatly.
00:22:34
Devin
Sometimes it seems like it's in small ways, but it's much bigger than I think it can seem sometimes.
00:22:41
Devin
Just to give an example, I have a really good friend who is a dancer that's on the spectrum of autism.
00:22:47
Devin
And they said to me, they came to my class maybe about a couple months ago, and they told me, they're like, I haven't taken a class with anyone in almost four years because of the discrimination, because of the ableism, because I didn't feel like I could come into a class and say, hey, can you turn off the flashing lights on the speaker?
00:23:08
Devin
That's really overwhelming for me.
00:23:11
Devin
So much of it begins with breaking down the ableism that has been in dance for years and helping people understand that you can express what you need.
00:23:23
Devin
And it's.
00:23:24
Devin
Sometimes it's really that simple.
00:23:26
Devin
So, like, in my class, like, I like to start, like, with an opening circle.
00:23:30
Devin
And first off, I always share that I'm a disabled artist, and I share, like, hey, you know, in order for me to be able to help you, can you please, like, if you need something from me, just say my name?
00:23:45
Devin
Like, that's more helpful for me.
00:23:46
Devin
I don't want to accidentally ignore you because I may not see your hand if you raise it.
00:23:50
Devin
And I can always see light bulbs go off in that moment of, like, wait a minute.
00:23:54
Devin
I've never heard a teacher say that before.
00:23:57
Devin
Like, what?
00:23:58
Devin
You.
00:23:58
Devin
You have an access need.
00:24:00
Devin
So just starting to break down those things of, yes, I am the teacher, but I'm a human.
00:24:07
Devin
I'm a human holding this space for you.
00:24:10
Devin
And so why wouldn't I share an access need with you so that you feel comfortable to share what you need as well?
00:24:15
Devin
And then next thing you know, we're going around the circle, we're introducing yourself, and someone says, hey, you know, I'm recovering from an injury, and I might need to take a moment for myself, or I may need to change choreography.
00:24:27
Devin
I might need to slow down.
00:24:29
Devin
And then it becomes this domino effect of people just feeling like they can say what they need and do what they need for their bodies.
00:24:36
Devin
And that is not something that's disability exclusive, either.
00:24:40
Devin
Like, it's just.
00:24:41
Devin
It's about humanity.
00:24:43
Devin
Everybody has access needs, and unfortunately, a lot of those access needs have been pushed away throughout the course of history with dance, because we've been told all the time, like, leave it at the door.
00:24:55
Devin
Like, you're just here to dance, here to come in to learn to do it, and then you leave.
00:25:00
Devin
And that has made dance inherently inaccessible for everybody.
00:25:07
Devin
Because when people feel like they can't be who they are and they can't express what they need for themselves in a space, it's like, that's when you have emotional issues happening.
00:25:17
Devin
That's when you have injuries coming up.
00:25:19
Devin
Like, that's when you're taking away what people need.
00:25:23
Devin
And at the end of the day, like, that's taking away humanity from people.
00:25:27
Devin
And so I feel like, as an educator, it's my responsibility to make sure that every single person that walks through my door and comes into my space feels like that they can come in with whoever they are and whatever they need.
00:25:43
Devin
I always say to my students, I'm like, I don't know your body.
00:25:46
Devin
I don't know.
00:25:47
Devin
I will never know what you need more than you do.
00:25:50
Devin
I'm like, so if you need something in this space, this is the space to say it.
00:25:56
Devin
You're safe here.
00:25:58
Devin
I'm not going to think you're a bad dancer because you needed to sit down for five minutes.
00:26:03
Devin
I'm not going to get upset with you because you're like, that doesn't feel good for my body.
00:26:07
Devin
I need to lower my leg.
00:26:09
Devin
Why would I be upset with you about that?
00:26:12
Devin
It's like, I'm not teaching you and holding this space for you to reflect me to me.
00:26:18
Devin
That's not possible.
00:26:19
Devin
We're all different for a reason.
00:26:21
Devin
We're all humans for a reason.
00:26:23
Devin
So I think it's starting to break down these unrealistic expectations that we're all supposed to act like and be like this person who's leading a space.
00:26:34
Devin
I think the moment that we bring dance back to humanity and we start looking at people as individual, different people who are bringing their individual experiences into spaces, that's when you start to bring in grassroots of accessibility.
00:26:49
Devin
And so it really starts there, and then that's when you start to branch out into more and you go deeper and you learn more.
00:26:56
Devin
And the most important thing that I always say to educators when I'm doing access trainings, I love to say to them, I'm like, you have to understand, you're still a student.
00:27:04
Devin
As an educator, the moment that you think you know everything as an educator, you don't need to be one anymore.
00:27:10
Devin
Every time I teach a class, I walk out learning something new from my students because I didn't know who they were coming in.
00:27:20
Devin
And so I think the moment that you start to approach dance from that standpoint, you're at the beginning of your journey of becoming a more accessible educator.
00:27:31
Silva
Yeah, that is very validating in a way that I always have felt that when I teach, I am the biggest learner in the space.
00:27:39
Silva
Like, one of the reasons why I.
00:27:41
Silva
Love teaching is because I feel like.
00:27:43
Silva
I learn so much every time.
00:27:47
Devin
Yeah.
00:27:49
Devin
It's a process that never stops.
00:27:51
Devin
And I think that's one of the most important things about diving into accessibility is that you never stop learning about it.
00:28:00
Devin
It never stops changing.
00:28:02
Devin
It never stops evolving.
00:28:04
Devin
And I think sometimes what gets in the way of accessible education is this idea of, like, well, I'm an educator.
00:28:10
Devin
I'm supposed to know.
00:28:11
Devin
I'm supposed to know what I'm doing.
00:28:13
Devin
I'm supposed to be the one leading and holding this space.
00:28:15
Devin
And it's just like, but who says that that's what you're supposed to do?
00:28:20
Devin
Like, you.
00:28:21
Devin
You're also a learner, and that's okay.
00:28:24
Devin
It's like, to be able to make space for everyone in your space.
00:28:27
Devin
You have to be a learner.
00:28:28
Devin
You have to be curious about who this person is, because if you're not curious, then there's no way for them to be honest with you about who they are.
00:28:38
Devin
And so I feel like so much of the accessibility existing in my space as an educator comes from my curiosity of every single person that comes into that space.
00:28:49
Devin
And then that's when you can start communicating and starting to understand and explore more about what accessibility is and how to bring that into your space that a lot of times, most educators, they don't even know that they need to be curious.
00:29:04
Devin
And so that's where I feel like it starts.
00:29:07
Devin
And then you can go dive in deeper, get more education, and start to understand how accessibility can truly be implemented.
00:29:16
Silva
Yeah.
00:29:17
Silva
Yeah.
00:29:18
Silva
Wow.
00:29:19
Silva
So tell me, are you still with the dance Education Equity association?
00:29:26
Devin
I'm not currently.
00:29:27
Devin
I think they're kind of going through, I think, a transitional period.
00:29:31
Devin
So I'm not working as an educational specialist with a meth at the moment, but I'm hoping to reconnect with them.
00:29:38
Devin
But I did.
00:29:39
Devin
I was back in 2023, I was working as an educational specialist with them and just did a lot of panels and trainings with different, mainly dance conventions to start to help them with just understanding the grassroots of accessibility, because I feel like conventions are some of the hardest spaces when it comes to accessibility and understanding how that affects the people that are coming into their space.
00:30:12
Devin
But I feel like DEA is an incredible organization.
00:30:16
Devin
They've done so much work in terms of trying to create safe and equitable spaces.
00:30:22
Devin
And what that looks like really starting just giving the, like, the 101 of things.
00:30:27
Devin
Like, what does this mean?
00:30:28
Devin
Like, how do we make anti racism spaces?
00:30:31
Devin
How do we start to bring accessibility?
00:30:32
Devin
What is anti othering?
00:30:33
Devin
Like, what does that mean?
00:30:35
Devin
And so I enjoyed my time with them because it felt like something beginning place for people.
00:30:43
Devin
And so when I get questions about, like, where do we start?
00:30:47
Devin
How do we do this?
00:30:48
Devin
DEA is definitely a organization that I like to recommend because it's kind of like the beginner friendly in the sense of like, let's break this down.
00:30:58
Devin
Because I think that accessibility gets lost in the feeling that it's too overwhelming.
00:31:04
Devin
Like, there's too much, like, how are we supposed to help everybody?
00:31:08
Devin
Like, I don't know how to do this.
00:31:09
Devin
How do we do this?
00:31:10
Devin
It's like, you have to take it one step at a time.
00:31:13
Devin
Like, and this is what I say to organizations all the time.
00:31:15
Devin
I'm like, you can't start to make everything accessible at once.
00:31:21
Devin
That, that is setting yourself up for failure.
00:31:24
Devin
It's like, you have to break it down piece by piece.
00:31:28
Devin
We're going to start with our competition, then we're going to look at our budget, then we're going to look at education.
00:31:33
Devin
We're going to look at this, look at that.
00:31:35
Devin
It's like you have to take it step by step in that process.
00:31:38
Devin
And so that's what I really love deea for, is that it gives a beginning for people.
00:31:47
Silva
So tell me, and you do a little bit of an audio description for dance and what are you up to right now?
00:31:54
Silva
I know you're really busy, but you're just consulting and teaching.
00:32:00
Silva
And so tell me more about your current practice.
00:32:03
Devin
Yeah, so I really have been focusing a lot on teaching because I didn't grow up teaching in the same way that a lot of people did.
00:32:15
Devin
Unfortunately, because of ableism and discrimination.
00:32:18
Devin
So I really kind of came to my education really just in the last, like, four to five years and just figuring out, like, how to implement my life experience as a disabled person and creating more accessible spaces.
00:32:33
Devin
So, like, I started teaching kids with disabilities, which has just been the joy of my life.
00:32:39
Devin
And I did that for the past, like, three years.
00:32:42
Devin
And now I'm also doing that with a different organization called Bodywise, which I absolutely love and really focuses on accessible education for kids and adults.
00:32:53
Devin
So that's kind of a newer thing that I've been doing this year.
00:32:58
Devin
I also just started dancing with an all disabled dance company.
00:33:02
Devin
I wish I could say who it is, but I can't yet.
00:33:04
Devin
But.
00:33:06
Devin
But it's been an incredible experience.
00:33:08
Devin
Just like, diving into disabled artistry in a way that I never have before and truly starting to work with how is disabled artistry intersecting with technology and just really deepening into more disabled dance practice.
00:33:25
Devin
So that's been a big shift in my life.
00:33:28
Devin
And going back and forth between DC and New York, I continue to do consulting work here and there, and just working with really, like, dance companies has been a big one lately, working with dance companies that are just trying to figure out where do we start?
00:33:45
Devin
So I've been doing a lot of consulting things with that, doing baseline accessibility audits for people just to give them a place to start.
00:33:54
Devin
I also have been working with a exercise app that is trying to create a more accessible platform.
00:34:04
Devin
So I've been working as a developer for that, which is really exciting, like, getting into that technological space and, like, how we're bringing access into dance and exercise, which I'm, like, very, very excited about, and also working with an incredible organization, feel the beat, who's created this phenomenal dance floor for dancers who are dead hard of hearing.
00:34:28
Devin
So I have been so excited.
00:34:30
Devin
I'm a board member with them now, and just, like, really diving into that has been so exciting.
00:34:37
Devin
So constantly things happening all the time.
00:34:42
Devin
Yeah, those are some of the things I've been up to.
00:34:45
Silva
Wow.
00:34:46
Silva
Wow.
00:34:47
Silva
There is a lot you mentioned bodywise.
00:34:49
Silva
Marco Greenlee, the founder of Bodywise, is an amazing human being and dance educator.
00:34:56
Silva
Huge shout out to Margo and then feel the beat is a dance studio that, like you said, has created this dance floor that is very accessible and helpful and supportive of dance students who are deaf or hard of hearing.
00:35:14
Silva
And I have been wanting to invite them to be my guests, so maybe now is a great time to invite them for the next episode.
00:35:23
Silva
Wow, it sounds like you are really busy, and I cannot wait to learn who this dance company is.
00:35:31
Devin
It'll be.
00:35:32
Devin
You'll find out very soon, I promise.
00:35:35
Devin
Okay, great.
00:35:36
Silva
Great.
00:35:39
Silva
So, Devin, what are some of your dreams that you still want to see in next 510 1550 years?
00:35:50
Silva
What do you want to see yourself in this dance world?
00:35:53
Silva
What are the things that you still haven't done and you really, really want to and any and all kinds of dreams around dance?
00:36:01
Devin
Yeah, I mean, like, oh, my gosh, I'm the person that.
00:36:05
Devin
I'm just, like, I want to do as many things as possible, but, you know, I really.
00:36:10
Devin
I'm someone who's very passionate about continuing to work with the able bodied dance world and to really start to bridge that connection between the disabled world and the able bodied dance world, because I'm starting to see the curiosity there.
00:36:29
Devin
I'm starting to see this new shift in consciousness of how do we do this?
00:36:35
Devin
I think that's something I'm still really passionate about.
00:36:38
Devin
I would love to be able to work more with the commercial world of how do we make representation in mass media more accessible?
00:36:48
Devin
How can people start to see themselves in a way that's truly real to our lives and our experiences?
00:36:56
Devin
That's something I'm really passionate about.
00:36:58
Devin
I would love to really dive more into choreographic process.
00:37:02
Devin
I would love to maybe have my own dance company at some point and continue to bring disabled choreographers to the forefront.
00:37:12
Devin
I feel like there's still a lack of that and also continuing in education, and I would love to be able to travel and teach, whether it's teaching at studios and workshops or traveling abroad, teaching at festivals.
00:37:29
Devin
I just want to continue to expand and get this knowledge of accessible dance to as many people as possible.
00:37:38
Devin
Like, I want to start to break down that fear and just have more dancers feel like I can do this.
00:37:45
Devin
So I feel like my ultimate goal is to just keep expanding and keep growing and keep connecting with as many people as I can, whether it's through my dance education, whether it's working in more mass media communications, whether it's just.
00:38:02
Devin
It's through traveling.
00:38:04
Devin
Expansion is the goal to be able to bring more representation, but also to connect with as many people as possible and to hopefully create a world where more people who have access needs can feel like they can do this as a career if they want it to be, or just for their own soul and just have fun.
00:38:28
Devin
I want a better world than what I grew up in, and so I don't always know what that looks like.
00:38:35
Devin
I'm a person that I'm going day by day, but every single day something happens that reminds me that this work is important and that there are people who are excited about it, who are ready to learn and who are open.
00:38:52
Devin
It never comes without struggle.
00:38:54
Devin
It never comes with it's not an easy journey but it's a necessary one.
00:38:59
Devin
Because every time someone tells me I didn't know that I could dance with this access need or I didn't know that I could be a disabled dancer, it reminds me how important this work is.
00:39:09
Devin
So I'm not going to stop doing it until I can't do it anymore.
00:39:17
Silva
I can now share the exciting news that Devon Hill has joined the kinetic light as their new dance home.
00:39:25
Silva
Kinetic Light is an internationally recognized disability arts ensemble working in the disciplines of art, technology, design and dance.
00:39:36
Silva
Kinetic light creates, performs and teaches at the nexus of access, queerness, disability dance and race.
00:39:45
Silva
Congratulations Devin. I'm so excited for your next moves in your career.