Dancecast

Inclusive Dance Education in Ireland

Episode Summary

In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews Rhona Coughlan, the artistic director of Inclusive Dance Cork in Cork, Ireland, along with project coordinator Dr. Kaylie Streit. Inclusive Dance Cork is a professional dance training program for people with and without disabilities who want to engage with contemporary inclusive dance. This program is based at Dance Cork Firkin Crane and is the only accredited program of its kind in the Republic of Ireland.

Episode Notes

In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews Rhona Coughlan, the artistic director of Inclusive Dance Cork in Cork, Ireland, along with project coordinator Dr. Kaylie Streit. Inclusive Dance Cork is a professional dance training program for people with and without disabilities who want to engage with contemporary inclusive dance. This program is based at Dance Cork Firkin Crane and is the only accredited program of its kind in the Republic of Ireland.

Rhona shares her empowering entrance into dance via co-founding Ireland’s first inclusive dance company, and Kaylie shares how her background as a music teacher led her to think about inclusive practices in the arts. Rhona describes the breadth of Inclusive Dance Cork’s programming and how it is made possible through strong community partnerships, how the program design provides person-centered access, and how her ultimate goal is to never have a person go into a dance class and feel excluded ever again.

This episode is part of a series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs and individuals who identify as disabled and have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers. This series is part of Silva’s ongoing work as the director of Art Spark Texas’ dance program. This year, she is continuing the multi-year community-engaged research project, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, that explores disability-centered accessibility in dance education and how we can create barrier-free dance education for students with disabilities in the US.

Inclusive Dance Cork is currently spearheaded by artistic director Rhona Coughlan, a dancer, advocate, and a full-time wheelchair user herself. She co-founded the first inclusive dance company in Ireland, Wheels in Motion, in 1994, and co-founded the second, Croí Glan, in 2006. Dr. Kaylie Streit is an educator, musician, and arts and culture researcher. Since recording this podcast, Kaylie has shared news she is leaving her role as project coordinator of Inclusive Dance Cork and has accepted the position of lead strings teacher at Cork City Music College. 

To learn more about Inclusive Dance Cork, visit dancecorkfirkincrane.ie/inclusive-dance-cork-idc.

Episode Transcription

00:00:28

Silva

Welcome to Dance cast, the podcast in which I interview people who create inclusive dance all around the world.

00:00:36

Silva

My name is Silva Lautkkonen and I am your host.

00:00:48

Silva

Welcome to episode 73.

00:00:51

Silva

It is so great to be back producing these episodes after a couple of years hiatus.

00:00:57

Silva

This episode is a part of a series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs or individuals who identify as disabled and who have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers.

00:01:14

Silva

This is a part two.

00:01:17

Silva

This series is part of my ongoing work as the director of Art Spark Texas Dance Program and this year we are continuing our multi year community engaged research project, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, that explores disability centered accessibility and dance education and how we can create barrier free dance education for students with disabilities in the USA.

00:01:45

Silva

In this episode, I'm speaking with the artistic director and project coordinator from Inclusive Dance Cork, based in Cork, Ireland.

00:01:55

Silva

Inclusive Dance Cork is a professional dance training program for people with and without disabilities who want to engage with contemporary inclusive dance.

00:02:06

Silva

Within this program, any and all access support needed by their participants are provided through the program so that they can focus solely on dance.

00:02:16

Silva

This helps them to create an environment focused on integrity, developing a supportive community equity and authentic engagement with Dans.

00:02:28

Silva

This program is based in Cork city at Dance Cork Firkin Crane and is the only accredited program of its kind in the Republic of Ireland.

00:02:39

Silva

This program is made possible through partnerships including University College Cork Shui Sha, Inclusive Arts Scope Foundation, Cork Education and Training Board, Dance Cork Firkin Crane, the Community foundation for Ireland and Rethink Ireland.

00:02:59

Silva

Inclusive Dance Cork is currently spearheaded by artistic director Rona Colon, a dancer advocate and a full time wheelchair user herself.

00:03:09

Silva

She also founded the very first inclusive dance company in Ireland, built in motion in 1994, and co founded the second in 2006.

00:03:21

Silva

In this episode, we also talk with the project coordinator, Doctor Kylie Stride, who is an educator, musician and arts and culture researcher who Rona works in hand in hand with.

00:03:36

Silva

I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:03:39

Silva

So welcome Rhona and Kaylee to my podcast.

00:03:44

Silva

I can't believe that we're doing this.

00:03:45

Silva

I'm so excited because I didn't put any podcasts out last year, so you're my very first guests in like last maybe year and a half.

00:03:57

Silva

Really exciting, right?

00:04:02

Silva

So Rhona and Kaylee are from inclusive dance Cork from Ireland and we're going to talk about a little bit of their dance education program as well as their backgrounds and how they ended up where they are.

00:04:16

Silva

So Rhona, will you introduce yourself first and tell me how did you end up in the dance world.

00:04:22

Rhona

Well, it's a pleasure to be here.

00:04:24

Rhona

Thank you so much for us being on your program.

00:04:27

Rhona

We are delighted and excited.

00:04:30

Rhona

My name is Rhona Coughlan and I am the artistic director of Inclusive dance Cork, which is the brainchild of Yvonne Colin, no relative, who is the chairperson of dance Cork Firkin Crane.

00:04:47

Rhona

And she felt very, very strongly that there needed to be a professional dance program in the area of inclusive dance within the Republic of Ireland, because nothing had existed up to that point.

00:04:59

Rhona

So they brought me in in July of 2022 to be the artistic director of the program.

00:05:06

Rhona

I have a very strong background in inclusive dance myself.

00:05:11

Rhona

I set up the first inclusive dance company in the country when I was 18 in 1994, along with two friends of mine, and so it's three of us together.

00:05:22

Rhona

Neither of them had a disability, so it was inclusive.

00:05:25

Rhona

I've always been interested in working inclusively rather than segregating people, and so that company ran for about two years.

00:05:34

Rhona

We did local performances in Cork, and then I ended up working in television and radio for a couple of years and then ended up working back in the area of inclusive dance when I was 30.

00:05:45

Rhona

And I co founded another inclusive dance company, which was a professional dance company.

00:05:50

Rhona

We toured all over the states, around Europe and around Ireland as well.

00:05:55

Rhona

So, been very lucky, very blessed, and it's something that I'm exceptionally passionate about.

00:06:01

Rhona

And I just believe that everybody has the ability and should have the chance to dance and express themselves in whatever way, shape or form that they want to.

00:06:10

Silva

That was awesome.

00:06:11

Silva

But, Rona, you didn't tell us the awesome part, like, how you got introduced to dance.

00:06:16

Silva

And because what my work has been around a lot lately is this.

00:06:21

Silva

The lack of trajectory, the same kind of trajectories that I, as an undiscipled child, when I was interested in dance, had, you know, like, I could easily dream my.

00:06:31

Silva

My pathway to become a professional dancer.

00:06:35

Rhona

I suppose.

00:06:36

Rhona

I suppose growing up in my household at the youngest of eight, there was never that kind of thinking.

00:06:42

Rhona

Yeah, there was never that.

00:06:46

Rhona

There was never that thinking of, you can't do something, ever, for any of us, for any of my self or my siblings.

00:06:55

Rhona

My parents were very, very forward thinking in their way of being in the world.

00:07:00

Rhona

And so at the age of 15, a dance teacher came to my school.

00:07:04

Rhona

I was the only person with a disability who was in the school, and she came in and invited up.

00:07:10

Rhona

We did a performance within the school grounds, but she invited all of us to join her dance company afterwards.

00:07:16

Rhona

And when I went down to join her company, she said, well, you can't join.

00:07:20

Rhona

And I said, why?

00:07:21

Rhona

Is it because I'm in a chair?

00:07:22

Rhona

And she said, no, it's got nothing to do with you being in a wheelchair, but I don't have the insurance.

00:07:27

Rhona

I don't have the space.

00:07:28

Rhona

I don't have the knowledge.

00:07:30

Rhona

And I said, well, fuck you.

00:07:32

Rhona

I'll set up my own company.

00:07:33

Rhona

And so, with those two friends that I was telling you about a while ago, we set up wheels in motion when I was 18, and I was incredibly lucky to meet those two people, Patrick Cashman and Denise Cronin.

00:07:46

Rhona

And Patrick and myself are still very, very, very close friends today.

00:07:50

Rhona

He's like my brother, and he's an incredibly strong, prolific dancer in the area of inclusive dance, as well as mainstream dance as well.

00:08:01

Rhona

And so we were very lucky that we were all thinking on the same wavelength about being inclusive and that everybody had the ability to dance.

00:08:10

Rhona

And it was just about tapping into that kind of mentality and honing.

00:08:16

Rhona

Honing it and growing it, which we did.

00:08:18

Rhona

Which we did.

00:08:20

Silva

That's great.

00:08:21

Silva

Thank you for sharing that.

00:08:23

Silva

And, Kaylee, what is your path being where you are right now?

00:08:28

Silva

Like, how did you get involved in dance?

00:08:29

Silva

How did you get interested and involved in dance and disability, and how are you?

00:08:33

Silva

How did you end up here?

00:08:35

Kaylie

Okay, so my path is far different from Rhona's and a little bit more roundabout sounding, but we're gonna get there.

00:08:44

Kaylie

So I actually had my beginnings as a public school music teacher in the States.

00:08:52

Kaylie

But that means that inclusion was always a huge part of my job, because especially in the particular area where I was teaching, we would have what they called inclusion inclusive classrooms, where they would just basically put everybody together and say, good luck.

00:09:12

Kaylie

And they thought because it was music, that it was just easy to do and adapt to.

00:09:18

Kaylie

But I realized very quickly it wasn't easy and very much wanted to do it well, because I believed everybody.

00:09:25

Kaylie

I believe everyone deserves a, first, high quality education.

00:09:29

Kaylie

But second, I think there are ways for everyone to participate in the arts, but it does take some time to figure out how and what works for everyone.

00:09:38

Kaylie

So that was always just kind of built into the way I was just thinking and teaching and being, but about music.

00:09:47

Kaylie

And so I came to Ireland and I did a master's and a PhD, but both of them in music.

00:09:56

Kaylie

But one thing that kind of supported me all the way through was working with the disability Support Services office, basically just providing academic support, because that's what I knew, and, you know, how I could do it, but I was constantly tweaking based on, you know, talking to the people I was working with.

00:10:17

Kaylie

I was constantly thinking, you know, how can we do it better?

00:10:23

Kaylie

And then, yeah, finishing up my PhD, I just started looking around in the area of the arts, because doing a PhD teaches you a lot about project management.

00:10:34

Kaylie

Let me tell you, managing your own project for five years teaches you a few things.

00:10:39

Kaylie

And I saw that inclusive dance Cork was looking for a project manager, project coordinator specifically.

00:10:49

Kaylie

But I'm, like, reading down the list of skills, and I'm like, hey, I have all those skills.

00:10:54

Kaylie

And I'm looking at the way that they're thinking about including everyone in the performing arts, but with and without disabilities, and making that blended space and having conversations that involve everyone.

00:11:09

Kaylie

And I'm like, I like this ideology.

00:11:11

Kaylie

I have these skills.

00:11:13

Kaylie

Let's go for it.

00:11:14

Kaylie

And now here we are.

00:11:16

Kaylie

And, yeah, over the past, it's been since March that I've been with them, and it's been fun.

00:11:23

Kaylie

I learn every day, and I love it.

00:11:26

Silva

That is so cool.

00:11:28

Silva

I wonder, you know, I was listening you talking about how inclusion in the classroom in the United States is still like, oh, it's not easy to include in arts.

00:11:40

Silva

And I wonder, when was that?

00:11:42

Silva

Because it's still like that.

00:11:43

Silva

And it makes me feel sad that it's like nothing has changed.

00:11:48

Kaylie

I know that was around 2016, 2015, 2016.

00:11:56

Kaylie

And it's a.

00:11:57

Kaylie

Yeah, and it's still happening.

00:11:59

Rhona

Yeah.

00:12:00

Silva

I'm also very proud of myself because when we were chatting last week, I was like, oh, Kaylee sounds really american.

00:12:06

Silva

And I was right.

00:12:09

Silva

I'm learning.

00:12:10

Silva

I'm learning, definitely.

00:12:13

Kaylie

Yeah.

00:12:13

Silva

Where in America are you from?

00:12:17

Kaylie

Yeah.

00:12:18

Kaylie

So I was born in North Carolina, but I lived most of my life in Buffalo, New York, up on the northeast coast there.

00:12:28

Kaylie

Yeah, my accent is somewhere in between the two.

00:12:31

Silva

Yeah.

00:12:33

Silva

Okay.

00:12:33

Silva

So then we got to 2022, when Rhona became the artistic director of inclusive dance Cork.

00:12:41

Silva

And tell us about the program.

00:12:43

Silva

What does it involve?

00:12:45

Silva

Who is it for?

00:12:47

Silva

Just everything about the program, Rhona, that you can share with us.

00:12:51

Silva

I'm really excited about hearing more about it.

00:12:54

Rhona

So, as I said, Yvonne Collin was the brainchild between of the whole project and brought in many people who were interested in the area.

00:13:04

Rhona

So we have, of course, dance Cork Forking Crane, which is the home of inclusive dance in the Republic of Ireland.

00:13:09

Rhona

We've got Cope foundation, which supports people with physical and intellectual disabilities.

00:13:14

Rhona

We have Rethink Ireland, who's been a great support system, who's a new partner for us in NIDC, and they've been very good with funding and giving practical support, and they're all about diversity and inclusion and community.

00:13:31

Rhona

So they've been a great partner.

00:13:32

Rhona

We've also got Cork education and training board and the university, UCC University College Cork as well, who've also been an incredibly strong partner.

00:13:42

Rhona

And I think that's what's making it work, if I'm honest.

00:13:45

Rhona

It's the partnerships between all of us, the shared thinking between all of us, and we're all of a similar mindset about being inclusive.

00:13:54

Rhona

People should be seen, people need to be out there.

00:13:57

Rhona

They're allowed to express themselves in whatever way, shape or form they want to, and they should be celebrated for who they are, no matter who they are.

00:14:04

Rhona

And so I was brought in in July 2022 as the artistic director.

00:14:10

Rhona

Unfortunately, the other person who was meant to do the that role as artistic director was unable to continue and they brought me in.

00:14:19

Rhona

So I basically had eight weeks with the whole project together and design a whole project and a whole course.

00:14:27

Rhona

And of course, I had never done that before to that scale.

00:14:31

Rhona

And I was really just trying to design a course that I'd like to do myself.

00:14:36

Rhona

It's very person centered.

00:14:38

Rhona

We bring in great facilitators.

00:14:40

Rhona

So generally speaking, how it runs is it's a weekend, normally a month.

00:14:44

Rhona

This year it's slightly different.

00:14:46

Rhona

We've got longer periods of time of four or five days with weekends in between.

00:14:53

Rhona

But we bring in different guest facilitators, some from the states, some from the UK, different parts of Europe.

00:15:00

Rhona

And we've got different guest speakers on Zoom as well.

00:15:03

Rhona

Of course, your lovely self being one of them for this year, which we're very excited about.

00:15:07

Rhona

So we bring in different guest facilitators.

00:15:11

Rhona

There's always two facilitators in the room, myself and the.

00:15:15

Rhona

The other facilitator.

00:15:16

Rhona

And they're bringing their own skill set to the group for that particular period of time that they're there.

00:15:23

Rhona

And everybody brings their own flavor.

00:15:25

Rhona

There's much discussion.

00:15:27

Rhona

It's very person centered and it's about enhancing and honing the best of each participant and giving them the skills so they can carry on and work in that area, developing that area if they want to.

00:15:40

Rhona

Now, originally we aimed at our dance teachers so they could be more inclusive in their classroom, and we aimed at people with disabilities who may not necessarily have had the experience of working inclusively, but it's much more open than that now.

00:15:57

Rhona

We're just inclusive of everyone.

00:15:59

Rhona

So anybody who's ever wanted to dance in any way, shape or form, and we're told, no, you can't.

00:16:06

Rhona

They don't fit that mold of what is perceived, and I mean perceived as perfect dance body dance beautiful body beautiful.

00:16:17

Rhona

Look, we're all perfectly imperfect, all of us on the planet.

00:16:20

Rhona

How beautiful is that?

00:16:22

Rhona

It's a gift.

00:16:23

Rhona

And so it's about embracing that, loving that, and exploring that, and.

00:16:28

Rhona

And bringing it to the next level with your dance career or your dance development, and giving yourselves the tool to arm yourself, working in an inclusive manner.

00:16:39

Rhona

So that's really what it's about.

00:16:41

Rhona

And the courses, you know, we've just finished year one and we had 21 students who graduated every age, every ability, every size, shape, form, experience.

00:16:52

Rhona

And it was exceptionally successful.

00:16:55

Rhona

And the students loved it.

00:16:57

Rhona

We loved it.

00:16:58

Rhona

Everybody was excited about it.

00:17:00

Rhona

The lord mayor of Cork was involved in giving out all the certificates.

00:17:04

Rhona

And now we're going into year two, starting at the beginning of February, and applications are still open, we're still accepting people right now, and we just want people to have the opportunity to dance and to express themselves.

00:17:19

Silva

Yeah, that sounds really amazing.

00:17:21

Silva

Is it all.

00:17:21

Silva

Is it in person or hybrid or.

00:17:25

Rhona

No, it's all in person.

00:17:27

Rhona

It's all in person.

00:17:28

Rhona

So it'd be based at Dance Cork Fork and Crane, because I felt it was very important for people to be in a dance space, in a dance studio.

00:17:36

Rhona

And as I said, dance Cork Firkin Crane is the home of inclusive dance within the Republic of Ireland.

00:17:42

Rhona

When I set up, when I co founded the second dance company, it was dance Cork Firkin grand that was very supportive of any work that I did.

00:17:52

Rhona

And so it's always been a very, very special place in my heart.

00:17:55

Rhona

So working with them and doing this project with them was just a dream come true for me, really.

00:18:00

Rhona

It's like somebody waved a magic wand and went, Tada.

00:18:03

Rhona

There you go.

00:18:04

Rhona

This is everything you've ever wanted.

00:18:06

Rhona

So.

00:18:07

Rhona

And I ran with it.

00:18:08

Rhona

You know, it was a gorgeous opportunity.

00:18:10

Rhona

I'm very lucky.

00:18:12

Rhona

I work the most beautiful people all the time who are very like minded.

00:18:16

Rhona

And so you're not trying to explain something to somebody when they already have a similar knowledge or background to you about being inclusive and about everybody's right to express themselves in what way they need to or want to or not, as the case may be, depending on the day.

00:18:33

Rhona

But so it's.

00:18:36

Rhona

It's very important and it's developing all the time.

00:18:39

Rhona

It's changed this year from last year, wherever, evolving, ever changing.

00:18:44

Rhona

And that's beautiful, too.

00:18:45

Rhona

It's and that's important as well.

00:18:47

Rhona

We're all growing.

00:18:47

Rhona

We're all learning.

00:18:48

Rhona

I don't pretend to know everything.

00:18:50

Rhona

That's why I bring in people who know more than me about certain things and I know more information than other people.

00:18:56

Rhona

So it's, it's really a thinking tank of everybody's knowledge together.

00:19:01

Rhona

And the students are so important because they bring their own experience, their own knowledge, their own life skills to the, to the program as well.

00:19:10

Rhona

So it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thinking plank of knowledge and shared experience.

00:19:17

Silva

Yeah, it sounds something I really would love to do.

00:19:20

Silva

Maybe I put it in my pocket list.

00:19:23

Rhona

Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:24

Rhona

Anytime.

00:19:24

Rhona

You'd be more than welcome.

00:19:25

Rhona

More than welcome.

00:19:26

Rhona

And the lovely thing is that it was like United nations last year.

00:19:31

Rhona

We had people from all over the world who came to the program, who committed their time to the program, and they brought so much richness to the program as well.

00:19:41

Rhona

So I guarantee we're going to do that this year with the next influx of people.

00:19:46

Rhona

And as I say, people can still apply.

00:19:48

Rhona

There's still opportunity there.

00:19:50

Rhona

And why not?

00:19:53

Rhona

Why not?

00:19:53

Rhona

If people are interested in coming along and bringing their skill set to it, by all means.

00:19:59

Silva

Right.

00:19:59

Silva

Right.

00:20:00

Silva

So, Kayleigh, where do you fit into this, all of this organizing?

00:20:04

Silva

Like, what is your biggest job or job task?

00:20:09

Silva

Or is it maintaining and creating these partnerships or.

00:20:15

Silva

Tell us a little bit about where you fit in.

00:20:18

Kaylie

Okay.

00:20:18

Kaylie

Yeah.

00:20:19

Kaylie

So in a way, I do what the job title says.

00:20:23

Kaylie

I coordinate the project, but that means a lot of things.

00:20:27

Kaylie

So that means coordinating between the partners we already have.

00:20:30

Kaylie

So I'm like, we work with UCC to get micro credentials.

00:20:36

Kaylie

So that's university College Cork, if we didn't say that yet.

00:20:41

Kaylie

We work with UCC to develop these micro credentials, which are basically standalone professional credits that acknowledge what people have learned about inclusive dance on the course.

00:20:54

Kaylie

So they walk away with a credit that acknowledges the work in choreography and another one in improvisation.

00:21:01

Kaylie

And so I help with a lot of the administrative side of that.

00:21:06

Kaylie

So, talking with our representatives from UCC, but Ron is usually in on those meetings as well, making sure that any agreements with them are taken care of, that students have access to course content online, because we do have like an online portal, basically, that we need to use and some of those kind of technical aspects.

00:21:32

Kaylie

And I would do the same thing with like, cork education and training board with them.

00:21:37

Kaylie

We have a second credit.

00:21:39

Kaylie

So people who come through the Cope foundation, they tend to support people with intellectual disabilities or hidden disabilities.

00:21:47

Kaylie

They also have an opportunity to get a credit.

00:21:50

Kaylie

This year it's in team building.

00:21:51

Kaylie

Our long term goal is to make a dance specific credit for them.

00:21:56

Kaylie

But we have to develop it ourselves.

00:21:58

Kaylie

So that's currently.

00:22:00

Kaylie

We've started writing it.

00:22:01

Kaylie

It's in progress officially, but for this year it will be team building.

00:22:07

Kaylie

So I liaise with them about that credit.

00:22:10

Kaylie

And.

00:22:12

Kaylie

Yeah, make sure a lot of the administrative side is taken care of.

00:22:16

Kaylie

I also apply for funding because you can't run without money.

00:22:23

Kaylie

As much as we wish it was different.

00:22:26

Kaylie

And I do a lot of the coordinating for our guest facilitators that we have come in.

00:22:34

Kaylie

So arranging accommodation, arranging travel, or reimbursing them for travel.

00:22:40

Kaylie

But also like confirming that they're going to be on the course.

00:22:45

Kaylie

Making sure that people are garda vetted.

00:22:47

Kaylie

Because we have to do that kind of background check, technical business.

00:22:53

Kaylie

Making sure we've set up meetings so that we can talk about what we need to talk about on the program.

00:22:59

Kaylie

So that even though we have different guest facilitators, there are some common grounds and common themes that are running through a lot of that kind of.

00:23:10

Kaylie

It's fun to have all the conversations.

00:23:12

Kaylie

Some of it does get quite technical, but it's literally coordinating the project, I suppose.

00:23:18

Silva

Right, right.

00:23:20

Rhona

Yeah.

00:23:20

Silva

That's really nice that you mentioned that there's those credit scores that you have been able to tie into this course as well.

00:23:28

Silva

So for both of you, where do you want this to go?

00:23:32

Silva

What is your ideal goal?

00:23:34

Silva

Five years?

00:23:35

Silva

What is this gonna be?

00:23:36

Silva

Ten years?

00:23:36

Silva

What is this gonna be?

00:23:37

Silva

Who wants to start?

00:23:39

Rhona

Kayleigh.

00:23:41

Rhona

I think it's important to say, silva, that myself and Kaylee very much work as a team.

00:23:48

Rhona

You know, Kayleigh's role as a project coordinator.

00:23:51

Rhona

I'm the artistic director.

00:23:52

Rhona

And everything between Kaylee and myself overlaps all the time.

00:23:56

Rhona

All the time.

00:23:57

Rhona

Constantly.

00:23:58

Rhona

I mean, it gets completely blurred between us, you know, because we're the ones that are running the day to day the course and then linking it with all the partners.

00:24:07

Rhona

So it's.

00:24:08

Rhona

Even though it's.

00:24:10

Rhona

It's defined, it's not defined really, because in other ways.

00:24:14

Rhona

Because we.

00:24:14

Rhona

We have a tendency to overlap each other quite a lot.

00:24:18

Kaylie

The main difference would be I'm not teaching and Rona is teaching.

00:24:23

Rhona

Yeah.

00:24:23

Rhona

And I'm not dealing.

00:24:25

Rhona

And I'm not dealing with logistics and all the emailing and admin as much as Kayleigh is.

00:24:31

Kaylie

Yeah.

00:24:31

Rhona

That would.

00:24:32

Rhona

They would be.

00:24:32

Rhona

That they would be the main differences.

00:24:34

Rhona

But in terms of headspace and knowledge and information and shared experience, we're kind of like one brain at this point.

00:24:42

Rhona

You know, we can't really read each other's thought.

00:24:44

Kaylie

Exactly.

00:24:45

Kaylie

And even on the training days, I'm still present.

00:24:49

Kaylie

Like, even though I coordinate things, I'm there at the Firkin crane making.

00:24:54

Kaylie

Well, partly making sure people are where they need to be, but also just making sure everybody, everything's running smoothly, being in the room so I can actually see what's happening and, you know, give my own feedback if I.

00:25:08

Kaylie

If most mostly on logistical things, but to be there and experience it and see what they're getting as well.

00:25:14

Kaylie

So I'm usually in and out of the room, but no, I leave the teaching Toronto.

00:25:21

Silva

It does sound like you are like a two person power team.

00:25:25

Rhona

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:27

Rhona

I have a standing joke with Kaylee that we're like Batman and Robin, and some days she's Batman and I'm Robin, and some days I'm Batman and she's Robin, and it just depends on the day, you know, it very much depends on the day, but it can't work.

00:25:40

Rhona

It doesn't work so well if it's.

00:25:42

Rhona

It needs to be the two of us, you know, it needs to be the two of us.

00:25:46

Rhona

And we've.

00:25:47

Rhona

We've worked that very well.

00:25:49

Rhona

We've been very lucky.

00:25:49

Rhona

We've worked that very well.

00:25:51

Rhona

We've a great working relationships and we're good buddies as well.

00:25:54

Rhona

So that works out very well.

00:25:56

Rhona

To answer your question, though, I just wanted to highlight that because it's not so straightforward, you know.

00:26:03

Rhona

To answer your question, where do we want this to go for the next couple of years?

00:26:08

Rhona

Well, in terms of what Kaylee highlighted, which was the micro credentials, I'd love that for that to develop.

00:26:15

Rhona

So not only is there a qualification with microcredits, that's a certificate or higher diploma, a degree, a master's in inclusive dance.

00:26:24

Rhona

So I'd like that to keep developing and developing and developing.

00:26:29

Rhona

Of course, I want people to.

00:26:32

Rhona

I think my ultimate goal for myself is I never want a person to walk into a dance class and feel like they're excluded or that they can't join ever again.

00:26:42

Rhona

You know, I don't like that kind of thinking.

00:26:45

Rhona

I don't like segregation in any way, shape or form.

00:26:49

Rhona

It's ridiculous to me.

00:26:50

Rhona

It's like saying blue white people need to hang out there and they can't hang out with brown eyed people or vice versa, or people who wear glasses need to stay wearing.

00:26:58

Rhona

Hanging out with people with glasses, it's just ludicrous.

00:27:01

Rhona

So it's about making it more inclusive about making spaces more accessible, making venues aware about making their space more inclusive of people with different impairments.

00:27:13

Rhona

And it's.

00:27:14

Rhona

It's about just developing the thinking and developing the experience for people with or without disabilities to work much more in an inclusive manner.

00:27:24

Rhona

So it's more seamless for everybody.

00:27:26

Rhona

You're not standing out so much like an oddball or that you're on the peripheral or you're on the edge, because it doesn't need to be that.

00:27:35

Rhona

It doesn't need to be that.

00:27:36

Rhona

And it's.

00:27:37

Rhona

It's fantastic to be on the cutting edge with this dance program in the Republic of Ireland.

00:27:42

Rhona

We're so lucky that it's the first of its kind.

00:27:45

Rhona

We're blessed with the partners that we have.

00:27:47

Rhona

We really are very lucky that we're all of the same mindset and we all have the same vision, which is wonderful.

00:27:56

Rhona

So I just would like you to keep moving forward, bringing in more incredible international artists, more experience, doing more performance, creating a really good, strong hub of working inclusively in the Republic, and bringing in more great artists, as I say.

00:28:17

Rhona

And the people that existed from last year on the program, adding them to the mix, you know, and creating a bigger collective of people, actually.

00:28:25

Rhona

So there's a universal irish language way of talking about inclusive dance, but it doesn't feel like it's on the edge, and it just feels like it's part of.

00:28:35

Rhona

It's part of the mix.

00:28:37

Rhona

Kayleigh.

00:28:38

Kaylie

And also just showing, like, how that's possible.

00:28:41

Kaylie

So a large.

00:28:45

Kaylie

A decent chunk of our funding is so that we can provide support for people, so that everybody can just focus on the dance and don't need to be worried about, you know, am I gonna have the support that I need?

00:28:59

Kaylie

Am I gonna be able to communicate?

00:29:01

Kaylie

Am I going to be able to access the space?

00:29:05

Kaylie

So a large part of our funding goes to support for that, so that people can just come in the room and focus on dance.

00:29:13

Kaylie

And I think on the logistical side, that's something I'd like to continue being able to provide and developing, because right now, we could probably support about half of the participants for the entire duration of the program.

00:29:31

Kaylie

But it would be really great if we could have the resource to support all of them if they needed it.

00:29:37

Kaylie

And that's not to say sometimes we have people come in and they just don't, you know, they don't need a support worker or they don't need a scribe, but what would we do if all of them did?

00:29:49

Kaylie

And so I'd kind of like to get rid of that, like what if question in our process of growing this up to be a master's degree at some stage, it would be really great to see those credits develop into a full fledged program so that they could stand alone, but also can be their own thing.

00:30:11

Kaylie

But it would also be great to show that it is possible to have everybody in the space focused on dance and just being able to focus on expressing yourself through dance, basically, and not.

00:30:27

Rhona

What I know you're.

00:30:28

Rhona

I know your viewers are just listening to our conversation, but I'm actually just beaming with smiles because Kayleigh's right, you know, it's, when we're in the space, it's just about dance.

00:30:40

Rhona

Everything else washes away.

00:30:42

Rhona

You know, when everybody starts together, everybody's aware of who, what, why, where, maybe.

00:30:47

Rhona

And then we hone in on dance and that's really what it's about.

00:30:51

Rhona

So when you take away all the other stuff and you sort all the other stuff out, environment and the needs of everybody and it's just, just focused on the dance, that's the beautiful place to be.

00:31:02

Rhona

That's where we want to be.

00:31:03

Rhona

And that's the focal point, I should also say, because we've been talking about UCC and the micro credentials, those want to develop that module for the Cork Education and training Board about inclusive dance because it doesn't exist yet.

00:31:17

Rhona

So the development of all these different programs for the different organizations is also very important as well.

00:31:24

Rhona

And that they're nothing tokenistic, that they're actually genuine, proper programs with really good, strong learning outcomes for everybody.

00:31:33

Rhona

And they're not just a qualification for the sake of a piece of paper.

00:31:39

Rhona

It needs to have the grounding and the, the underbelly of the roots of inclusive dance involved in it.

00:31:46

Rhona

It's very, very important.

00:31:47

Rhona

Otherwise, there's no point in the book.

00:31:50

Silva

Breath of bodies discussing disability in dance.

00:31:53

Silva

One of the things that we asked Washington would you like to see dance and disability part of the mainstream dance or to become its own?

00:32:03

Silva

And I feel like in a lot is the same when it comes to dance education, the question is the same.

00:32:10

Silva

Would you like to see dance and disability being implemented in existing dance programs at higher education, or would you like to create your own?

00:32:20

Silva

And what I actually think that you guys are doing, you have kind of a perfect combination of it.

00:32:27

Silva

Like there's the support and the structure of the existing, but you have created your own space and your own curriculum and your own way of making sure that it is about dance and not nobody feeling isolated or excluded or having to experience harm because their needs are not meth.

00:32:48

Silva

And so when I'm listening, I just think this is like.

00:32:51

Silva

Actually, it's like you say Rona all the time.

00:32:54

Silva

It's about inclusion.

00:32:56

Silva

And this is almost like even that program structure is inclusion.

00:33:01

Silva

You know, that you have the existing educational structures and you have the new dance department, and then it just goes like that.

00:33:10

Rhona

I thank you for saying that, silva.

00:33:12

Rhona

That's a lovely thing to hear.

00:33:14

Rhona

I.

00:33:14

Rhona

That's where.

00:33:15

Rhona

That's what we're striving to do.

00:33:17

Rhona

That's what we're striving to do all the time.

00:33:19

Rhona

There's lots of discussions around things, but ultimately I'm at the helm.

00:33:25

Rhona

And it's just because I've learned a lot, I've gone through a lot in the area of inclusive dance, and I just don't want it to happen to other people.

00:33:35

Rhona

It's very, very important that everybody's honored in the room, that everybody's needs are methadone, and that everybody gets the same information, and that there's nobody left feeling isolated, feeling different in a negative way.

00:33:49

Rhona

We're all different.

00:33:50

Rhona

We're all uniquely ourselves and we're all a celebration.

00:33:54

Rhona

It's not about less than.

00:33:55

Rhona

There's no such thing as less than.

00:33:57

Rhona

It's all about just celebrating our differences, you know?

00:34:02

Rhona

So that's the intention, is to keep growing the way we're growing.

00:34:08

Rhona

We're very, very lucky with dance cork for concurrent because it's a great space.

00:34:11

Rhona

And I was adamant that all the classes were going to be there and that it needed to be in that dance space.

00:34:17

Rhona

It couldn't be somewhere else.

00:34:19

Rhona

And that's taken a lot of negotiation on a lot of people's parts, you know, God bless Caylee, because that hasn't been easy.

00:34:27

Rhona

You know, and even for other programs and other courses that are being run up and downs, Cork, Firkin, Crane, I mean, they're all very supportive of what we're trying to do.

00:34:36

Rhona

And it's not about creating any kind of segregation, it's about trying to get the blend right and that everybody's need is met.

00:34:44

Rhona

Your need is as important as my need, as important as Joe Blogg's need, you know, so it doesn't matter what it, what the individual want is or the requirements are.

00:34:55

Rhona

We have to try and meet everybody's need to the best that we can.

00:34:59

Rhona

We don't always get it right, we don't always have the availability, but there's always a striving to do so.

00:35:05

Rhona

There's always a striving to do so.

00:35:09

Silva

Yeah.

00:35:11

Kaylie

And just to add to that, like, that's why we constantly keep the conversation going.

00:35:15

Kaylie

And part, a large part of what we do on the course is talk about, like, personal agency.

00:35:20

Kaylie

So, like, how to talk about what you need, how to articulate it when you can, just so that it can be met, because we can't meet a need if we don't know that it exists.

00:35:35

Kaylie

So that's part of it as well.

00:35:38

Kaylie

But I think to kind of get back to your question a little bit, I think the ideal would be so that everyone can have access to a dance class who wants it, really?

00:35:50

Kaylie

And so it's not necessarily, I mean, it feels like making something new because for some reason, no one's done it before, but just making it so that no is either because you don't want to participate in that style of dance or, you know, like, you know, something more, I guess, aesthetic rather than because of a disability or a different ability.

00:36:18

Kaylie

So that the no comes from something else, if it's happening at all.

00:36:25

Kaylie

Yeah.

00:36:25

Kaylie

So just trying to forge that space where people are not saying no because of an ability problem or access problem, it's, you know, everybody can have access.

00:36:40

Kaylie

I think that's the ultimate goal.

00:36:42

Kaylie

More so than whether that happens to be within the world of how current dance classes work or whether that's.

00:36:52

Kaylie

It's entirely new thing.

00:36:53

Kaylie

I think the only way to make it is to blend the two, really, this mix of what already happens and what needs to happen, really, and just bringing it together so that everybody can access dance who wants to.

00:37:10

Rhona

And I completely agree with what Kaylee just said.

00:37:13

Rhona

I mean, it's.

00:37:14

Rhona

It's really about giving people the opportunity to dance and not having other variables in the way about access or because it's a different aesthetic.

00:37:24

Rhona

But also, dance teachers and people who are teaching the classes need to be in the know and not to be fearful of including people with, who have difference to them in their classroom.

00:37:36

Rhona

So it's about creating a bigger conversation about what dance is, who it's aimed at, who is it for.

00:37:43

Rhona

Because when we were all born, we innately all move dance.

00:37:47

Rhona

If you play music to a child, they'll innately move.

00:37:51

Rhona

The rhythm is in all of us to do so.

00:37:53

Rhona

So it's about giving dance teachers, dance professionals, the opportunity to have a bigger conversation about what dance is and who the arts is aimed at.

00:38:04

Rhona

Because the arts is aimed at everybody.

00:38:08

Silva

Since we recorded this podcast, Kaley has shared news about leaving her role as project coordinator of inclusive dance.

00:38:17

Silva

Cork she has accepted the position of lead strings teacher for Cork City Music College.

00:38:25

Silva: We wish you, Kayleigh, all the success in your new endeavors, and we will be excited to know who will be the next project coordinator of inclusive dance Cork.