In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews Jasmiina Sipilä, who works as a leading teacher in the dance department of Vocational College Live, where they offer the only professional dance degree in Finland for dancers with special needs. The professional degree in dance is aimed for students with special needs, which means these dance students need individual support, modifications, and extra guidance in their studies and working life. The definition of special needs is used in this interview as an umbrella term to mean students who are neurodivergent, have developmental disabilities, have mental health challenges, or have different bodies and motor functions.
The Value of Studying Dance
DanceCast is a podcast that spotlights non-traditional dance artists. It is produced by Silva Laukkanen, an advocate for inclusive dance based in Austin, TX.
In this episode of DanceCast, Silva interviews Jasmiina Sipilä, who works as a leading teacher in the dance department of Vocational College Live, where they offer the only professional dance degree in Finland for dancers with special needs. The professional degree in dance is aimed for students with special needs, which means these dance students need individual support, modifications, and extra guidance in their studies and working life. The definition of special needs is used in this interview as an umbrella term to mean students who are neurodivergent, have developmental disabilities, have mental health challenges, or have different bodies and motor functions. Jasmiina describes how, in the degree, the students focus on contemporary dance, cooperation, somatic skills, performing, choreographing, and inclusive dance theory, as well as curriculum in dance practice and theory. The students’ degree has many applications after graduation, from dancing professionally to working in the community with different populations.
This episode is part of a series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs and individuals who identify as disabled and have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers. This series is part of Silva’s ongoing work as the director of Art Spark Texas’ dance program. This year, she is continuing the multi-year community-engaged research project, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, that explores disability-centered accessibility in dance education and how we can create barrier-free dance education for students with disabilities in the US.
Jasmiina Sipilä is a dancer (BA Hons in Contemporary Dance, Trinity Laban, City University of London), a dance teacher (Master of Dance, University of the Arts, Helsinki), and a special education teacher (professional teacher training college, Haaga-Helia, Helsinki). She has worked widely for 18 years as a dancer, choreographer and teacher in Finland and Europe. Jasmiina loves exploring inclusive dance practice and its possibilities in improvisation and somatic work.
00:00:28
Silva
Welcome to Dance cast, the podcast in which I interview people who create inclusive dance all around the world.
00:00:36
Silva
My name is Silva Lautkkonen and I am your host.
00:00:48
Silva
Welcome to episode 74.
00:00:51
Silva
It has been great to be back producing these episodes after a couple of years as hiatus.
00:00:58
Silva
This episode is part of a series interviewing institutions with inclusive dance programs or individuals who identify as disabled and have experienced formal dance education as either students or teachers.
00:01:13
Silva
This is part three.
00:01:16
Silva
This series is part of my ongoing work as the director of Art Spark Texas Dance Program and this year we are continuing our multi year community engaged research project, funded in part by the National Endowment for the Arts, that explores disability centered accessibility in dance education and how we can create barrier free dance education for students with disabilities in the USA.
00:01:44
Silva
This episode is very close to my heart because we are talking with my colleagues in Finland.
00:01:50
Silva
In my native Finland, where I'm from.
00:01:53
Silva
I talked to Jasmiina Sipilä, who is a dancer with the Hans in contemporary dance from Trinity Laban City, University of London, my alma mater.
00:02:04
Silva
A dance teacher, Master of Dance, University of Arts in Helsinki and a special education teacher professional teacher training college in Haga helia, Helsinki.
00:02:16
Silva
She works as a leading teacher in the dance department of Vocational College Live, where they offer the only professional dance degree in Finland for dancers with special needs.
00:02:28
Silva
She has worked widely for 18 years as dancer, choreographer and teacher in Finland and Europe.
00:02:35
Silva
Yasmina loves exploring inclusive dance practice and its possibilities, improvisation and somatic work the program that we will be discussing is vocational college Live, which is a vocational school located in the Helsinki metropolitan area in Finland.
00:02:55
Silva
They are the only educational institution in Finland that offers students with special needs a professional degree in dance vocational college live belongs to the Live foundation, which is a provider of special education services and rehabilitation as well as a national expert organization.
00:03:17
Silva
The professional degree in dance is aimed for students with special needs.
00:03:21
Silva
These dance students need special education, individual support and guidance for their studies and working life.
00:03:30
Silva
The definition of special needs is used as an umbrella terminal to mean students who are, for example, neurodivergent, have developmental disabilities or mental health challenges or different bodies and motor functions.
00:03:47
Silva
During the degree studies, the students focus on working life skills, contemporary dance, the development of students own artistic work, co operation skills, somatic skills, performing and choreographing, and inclusive dance theory as well.
00:04:06
Silva
Curriculum based knowledge on dance practice and theory.
00:04:10
Silva
The students graduate as professional dancers.
00:04:14
Silva
I hope you enjoy this episode.
00:04:17
Jasmiina
Shall we switch to English then?
00:04:19
Silva
Yeah, we should switch to English.
00:04:22
Jasmiina
And please, because I have mainly done in my working life in Finland regards to special needs pedagogy and special education then I sometimes lose my vocabulary so I might need to ask you like a translation.
00:04:41
Jasmiina
Even though my dancing life has been also in UK and has been like international.
00:04:47
Jasmiina
But I sometimes notice because the vocabulary is so specific to do with the law or to do with the qualifications then I can't find that.
00:04:57
Silva
Yes.
00:04:58
Silva
And in this data disability field, at least in the US the terminology changes all the time.
00:05:05
Silva
So I'll help of course.
00:05:06
Silva
I hope.
00:05:09
Silva
But Jasmiina, you want to tell us a little bit about yourself first and how you ended up where you are and then we can talk about the dance degree program.
00:05:18
Jasmiina
Yes.
00:05:19
Jasmiina
So yes, my name is Jasmiina Sipilä and I'm a Finnish dance practitioner, dance artist, a special education teacher and I'm head of the stance department in vocational college life.
00:05:37
Jasmiina
And we offer education program degree vocational degree program for students with special needs in dance.
00:05:48
Jasmiina
And yeah, my background is in working as a dancer and dance maker and in collaborative practices.
00:05:58
Jasmiina
I have certain sonres that I'm sort of.
00:06:01
Jasmiina
That are more close to me like conducting provisation and improvisation practices and some ethic work.
00:06:08
Jasmiina
But I've also done my education in dance in the BA, BA studies in UK in the Trinity laban the education where we had quite full on dance training with.
00:06:26
Jasmiina
With modern dance styles and other dance styles as well.
00:06:29
Jasmiina
And yeah, I worked as a dancer internationally in Europe and in UK mainly.
00:06:41
Jasmiina
And yeah.
00:06:41
Jasmiina
What's my journey towards kind of special needs education is maybe through.
00:06:50
Jasmiina
I had been working for some years already, maybe ten years or so.
00:06:55
Jasmiina
And I started to arrive at a place with the dance where I felt like I need to deepen the practice somehow towards teaching and sharing and facilitating.
00:07:04
Jasmiina
And I went to do master studies at the University of Arts Helsinki in the dance pedagogy department and there we had this area or a study component in special education and I somehow found there this sort of inspiration and a lot of very good like critical disability studies and pedagogy of oppressed and this kind of methodology.
00:07:34
Silva
So you went to study dance pedagogy in the University of Helsinki arts and in that program you actually had a course of special education.
00:07:46
Silva
That's amazing.
00:07:48
Silva
So every dance better coach he student in Finland goes through this?
00:07:56
Jasmiina
No.
00:07:56
Jasmiina
They learn.
00:07:57
Jasmiina
No.
00:07:57
Silva
Okay.
00:07:58
Silva
Okay.
00:07:58
Silva
Okay.
00:07:59
Jasmiina
That was good to be true.
00:08:02
Jasmiina
Yeah, it's the master's students.
00:08:04
Jasmiina
So.
00:08:04
Jasmiina
And that's quite a small amount of the dance teachers who do the actual like master studies.
00:08:09
Jasmiina
Quite a lot of duties.
00:08:13
Jasmiina
University of applied sciences where they.
00:08:16
Jasmiina
Where they do not have that to my knowledge, no.
00:08:19
Jasmiina
But in the master studies where you're supposed to get a bit deeper into the pedagogical practice, there you have one compulsory course.
00:08:28
Jasmiina
So all of the students who go to the University of Arts, they do do that.
00:08:33
Silva
Wow.
00:08:34
Silva
Yeah.
00:08:34
Jasmiina
And that was like a big inspiration for me, actually.
00:08:36
Jasmiina
And I do want to give credit for the lecturers there because they think it's an amazing program.
00:08:43
Jasmiina
It's international program, by the way.
00:08:45
Jasmiina
Feel free to find out about it because they do take a people from abroad and also it's like very affordable intuition.
00:08:55
Jasmiina
And for finnish people it's no intuition fee at all.
00:08:59
Jasmiina
And I think it's very, very affordable for like, you know, I can't remember now, but you're not talking about thousand euros or something.
00:09:06
Jasmiina
Not, you know, like.
00:09:07
Silva
Right.
00:09:08
Jasmiina
Right.
00:09:08
Silva
For the whole master's degree.
00:09:09
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:09:10
Jasmiina
For the whole masters, yeah.
00:09:11
Jasmiina
I think there's some expenses for students approach and it's still accessible because we also have this sort of government who wants to put intuitions fees up for people, for people who come to study from abroad.
00:09:25
Jasmiina
But there I get this.
00:09:26
Jasmiina
And I got like a lot of theoretical frameworks and methodologies for things that I had thought about during my life, you know, in different situations.
00:09:36
Jasmiina
And I met a lot of.
00:09:39
Jasmiina
I live close to people with special needs and seeing how their lives played out and how and somehow what sort of suffering there is and what sort of struggles there are and how sort of, and what sort of things kind of play a role in how you survive life and how you find a place.
00:10:03
Jasmiina
And then I found like, but I did.
00:10:05
Jasmiina
I had not before that I did not have like, I did not have like a theoretical research or knowledge or around that subject.
00:10:13
Jasmiina
So then when that kind of opened up to me, I was like, oh, this is amazing.
00:10:17
Jasmiina
I found like very, like still this sort of methodology that I still use today.
00:10:24
Jasmiina
So there I was like, yes, this is my direction.
00:10:27
Jasmiina
Like, and at the time I did not yet know what to do with that, but I was like, yes, I find a way to work with how to say, like, I was also.
00:10:37
Jasmiina
I could have gone to watch dance therapy or I could have gone towards some sort of like maybe rehabilitation or some sort of like, like embodying or healing.
00:10:52
Silva
Yeah.
00:10:53
Jasmiina
Looking at a little bit more this sort of.
00:10:56
Jasmiina
Or maybe working with somehow community projects in the creating, you know, people from different backgrounds in the society and so on.
00:11:08
Jasmiina
But then it happened that I found out about this education program where I'm now.
00:11:14
Jasmiina
And it also happened that Jari Gordunen, who established this program many years ago, was just sort of like moving forward with his career to become a teacher for special needs teachers.
00:11:28
Jasmiina
So that's where he moved on to.
00:11:30
Jasmiina
That was kind of like made sense for him.
00:11:34
Jasmiina
And I was very super lucky to kind of like I had been doing some substitute teaching at this course.
00:11:43
Jasmiina
So I had like a connection, connection to this.
00:11:46
Jasmiina
And then there was like maybe seven, a bit over seven years ago, this possibility then that there was the opportunity to come the head of this dance education program.
00:11:58
Jasmiina
And then obviously I then did then further education in vocational special needs teaching, like further qualification to run the course to get some more knowledge on the systems in place for like, oh, now I have this finnish moment, like Palo Velosys, dammit.
00:12:23
Jasmiina
Like the service systems, service systems and so on that it's good to know and good to get more knowledge if you like running the course where you also responsible of making a pathway for people to come in, the students to come in and find a pathway for them to go to working life.
00:12:44
Jasmiina
And a lot of them also go to support that working life.
00:12:47
Jasmiina
So there's a lot in plate when you work with this because there is the vocational level, then there is this support system level and then there is the arts and dance level of knowledge that are in place.
00:13:01
Jasmiina
Right.
00:13:02
Jasmiina
When you work with it.
00:13:04
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:13:04
Jasmiina
And it's great.
00:13:07
Silva
That's really cool to hear.
00:13:10
Silva
I'm like still so fascinated by the fact that the master program for dance beta coach in Finland offers this.
00:13:20
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:13:21
Silva
Like there is actually a chapter or a course in inclusive practices, I think.
00:13:27
Silva
And like for you it has changed your life.
00:13:30
Jasmiina
Yeah, it did.
00:13:32
Jasmiina
Because I'm quite, I'm quite.
00:13:35
Jasmiina
Even though like embodied practices are my core practices, obviously, but I'm also quite, I don't know, like little bit, you know, politically, like, like I'm interested in politics and society and, you know, power structures and constructions that we work with and live in the.
00:13:56
Jasmiina
And then somehow to get that because in my ba studies and in my working life, like the theoretical knowledge had not crashed that area.
00:14:06
Jasmiina
So when I kind of did not have that knowledge.
00:14:10
Jasmiina
So then when you have this window of opening, like to watch like critical disability studies for example, then you're like, yeah, I have vocabulary now.
00:14:18
Jasmiina
Yeah, and then you.
00:14:20
Jasmiina
And, yeah, as I was saying, like Vera Gotcha, oppressed and dialogical and all of this sort of intersectional feminism, feminist pedagogy, like methodologies like this.
00:14:33
Jasmiina
Then I felt they gave me a lot, like what I still like a lot of theoretical frames to maybe things that I was already doing or thinking, but then it's like, takes it forward to kind of have that and, yeah, I do think it's great to have that.
00:14:56
Jasmiina
Yeah, I had not thought about it that way because it's.
00:15:01
Silva
We here, like, fight over having dance and disability acknowledge in dance history courses because let alone that there would be an actually pedagogical part, that this is part of an existing dance world.
00:15:18
Silva
And I think it's just amazing that that's, like, disability studies is like, part of your core, core courses that you have to take.
00:15:30
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.
00:15:33
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:37
Jasmiina
Finland is going on.
00:15:38
Jasmiina
And I do think.
00:15:39
Jasmiina
And if I think about, like, my.
00:15:41
Jasmiina
My, like, own life, I think it's that a lot of my, like, how can I say?
00:15:48
Jasmiina
Like, finding my place in life has been through having access to education.
00:15:53
Jasmiina
And I think that's one of my main motives because, you know, without this program, the students who I have now and who are in this program now, they are students who would not have access to education without this program.
00:16:07
Jasmiina
And so I don't know, I feel like I have this sort of lived knowledge as well as, like, seeing and witnessing it, what it does to you when you have access to education.
00:16:16
Jasmiina
And in a funny way, there is this correlation.
00:16:19
Jasmiina
Like, yeah, I had this access to education, but yeah, kind of keeping on kind of offering that.
00:16:24
Jasmiina
And I think it's also in the level of, like, even like, in the level of human rights of having access to education and kind of being.
00:16:33
Jasmiina
Offering.
00:16:33
Jasmiina
Offering and access to also special needs students to art education, for example, to do more funny and more diverse art scene and create these places for kind of encountering and having diverse communities.
00:16:50
Jasmiina
And if I really think about my students, to also just find an agency in life, in society, not to become an outcast, but to have something to offer.
00:17:03
Jasmiina
To find a place to offer.
00:17:05
Jasmiina
So, yeah, they can offer accessing datacase and kind of binding, finding a place.
00:17:14
Jasmiina
Yeah, that plays a big role in my kind of motivation to do so.
00:17:20
Silva
Tell me a little bit more about who are your students, what is their pathway into this, to the school?
00:17:26
Silva
What is the degree that they gain and what kind of a work life you imagine or see that has happened to your previous students.
00:17:36
Jasmiina
Yeah, I suppose maybe I can start from this trigger warning.
00:17:44
Jasmiina
I start from diagnosis based speech, because we do have our place in the finnish education system is to offer the program and the education for students who are unable, that they need for support is such that it cannot be offered in mainstream education.
00:18:12
Jasmiina
That's why we do need to check quite carefully, like, for example, the diagnosis of the students who we take, that we reserve that place for the students who actually need it and who are sort of eligible for it.
00:18:29
Jasmiina
So that's why when we kind of, like, have a application process for students to take part, we do talk about their special needs and their diagnosis.
00:18:43
Jasmiina
And then the other side is, of course, the motivation and ability to do dance, that it's sort of safe for them and it's safe for them to study dance in a group.
00:18:56
Jasmiina
So the diagnosis, there's a lot of neuro atypicality in ADHD or autism spectrum.
00:19:06
Jasmiina
There is.
00:19:08
Jasmiina
There can be cognitive disability or development delays, kind of mild ones, usually brain based, so that the students, even with cognitive disability, are still able to get the degree.
00:19:23
Jasmiina
So it can be kind of individualized degree that they don't have to necessarily be able to do all the aspects of the degree.
00:19:35
Jasmiina
Then some aspects they can do supported.
00:19:38
Jasmiina
And then that's kind of marked in the degree certificate that where they got this individualized models.
00:19:52
Jasmiina
Yeah, so that's one.
00:19:54
Jasmiina
And I mean, can be like long term mental health problems or long term physical.
00:20:05
Jasmiina
Physical illnesses can be like a physical disability, like CP or an injury that causes, for example, the person to use a wheelchair and become a wheelchair dancer.
00:20:23
Jasmiina
Am I forgetting something?
00:20:24
Jasmiina
Sometimes visual or hearing impairments or.
00:20:28
Jasmiina
Yeah, different levels of that.
00:20:31
Jasmiina
That it's kind of enough for not to be accepted that the teachers in the mainstream.
00:20:39
Jasmiina
Okay, so no dance degree programs say that, oh, this is a problem because they're afraid that there is going to be some injury, that they cannot accommodate that.
00:20:47
Jasmiina
So then if that's enough, then we can still take this person because we have a bit more resources and knowledge.
00:20:54
Jasmiina
Sometimes I think so much about knowledge.
00:20:57
Jasmiina
Just as a side note, like, if the mainstream students would have a bit more knowledge, just a bit more, then that would be they would be able to take some of our students.
00:21:06
Jasmiina
But for the time being, you know, these students could apply to us.
00:21:11
Jasmiina
And quite often all of this.
00:21:13
Jasmiina
What I said, they can also be.
00:21:15
Jasmiina
They can coexist a lot of times, like neurotypicality or like, you know, they do diagnostically also quite often coexist.
00:21:26
Jasmiina
A lot of this different things sometimes not always, but can be also socioeconomical background.
00:21:33
Jasmiina
And students can come to us through social services and try support services like that.
00:21:40
Jasmiina
They have had a severe trauma history or so, and they're in this rehabilitation and they can come through that sort of pathway, or they can come from a very kind of kid background, but just have some, for example, brain based injury, and that's kind of cost them the need for special edit case.
00:22:00
Silva
So you were saying how maybe just a little bit more knowledge in the mainstream does better teacher and they would be able to include some of your students into the mainstream.
00:22:11
Silva
So here the debate is often like, do we want to be part of the mainstream dance education or do we.
00:22:20
Silva
Want our own dance education?
00:22:24
Silva
And what I'm wondering is, how are the students feeling?
00:22:30
Silva
Like, what is the feedback?
00:22:32
Silva
Is it always positive or is it mixed of negative?
00:22:35
Silva
Like, I don't want to be in this, like, I don't want to be labeled in this special education dance program.
00:22:42
Silva
I just want to study dance with everyone else.
00:22:44
Silva
Or what is the feeling in Finland?
00:22:47
Silva
What comes to that?
00:22:50
Jasmiina
I think it does depend a lot who you talk to.
00:22:54
Jasmiina
Like, it's also, if I think of the professional field as well as the education field, it really depends who you talk to.
00:23:03
Jasmiina
People have different opinions, as you say, people have different opinions on it in terms of students.
00:23:09
Jasmiina
They know where they apply and they most often grateful for having the possibility.
00:23:17
Jasmiina
Maybe I should mention that there's quite a mix of ages that most often the ones who have already lived a life a little bit, maybe tried one education program, dropped out, maybe spent some years doing nothing or becoming a little bit outside of the society.
00:23:33
Jasmiina
And then they find a way to work, to be valued and to gain professional knowledge and to find their way back to working life, maybe appreciate it the most.
00:23:45
Jasmiina
Then students who come straight from, like, what is it?
00:23:52
Jasmiina
Like the preliminary school, like, who comes straight from, like, the mandatory school people.
00:24:00
Jasmiina
The mandatory school, like, then they would be 16 or 17, and then they start gaining this vocational training degree.
00:24:10
Jasmiina
Then they are maybe the ones who have.
00:24:13
Jasmiina
But I think it's to do with youth and maybe accepting your own needs and you're finding your own place in life.
00:24:23
Jasmiina
There is most often the youth struggles with wanting to be normal and then whatever that means.
00:24:31
Jasmiina
Yeah, whatever that means.
00:24:32
Jasmiina
Exactly.
00:24:33
Jasmiina
And I think all the youth struggles with wanting to be normal and be part of a pack, you know, be part of a group and.
00:24:42
Jasmiina
Yeah, exactly.
00:24:45
Jasmiina
So then I think then maybe that's part of just kind of growing in general, so.
00:24:54
Jasmiina
Yeah, but in general, I think people are happy then some students kind of happy being able to receive dance degree because especially if they already have that knowledge in life that it's not for granted.
00:25:09
Jasmiina
Like it doesn't come necessarily like it's not.
00:25:13
Jasmiina
They already understand that there is a value for that.
00:25:16
Jasmiina
So then it's kind of.
00:25:17
Jasmiina
So, yeah, and youth sometimes struggles with it and kind of grows, hopefully.
00:25:23
Jasmiina
Like, the aim is always that.
00:25:25
Jasmiina
Always the younger ones sort of kind of grow into kind of having their own integrity in what they do and finding that and what to say.
00:25:37
Jasmiina
Like maybe something I want to say about this, that even though this is like the students aim after graduation to be employed in the working life, like not having separate jobs from others.
00:25:55
Jasmiina
So they kind of, like, even though it is sort of like a program that's kind of segregated, you could say, like, you know, that it's a just for the students with the Sony, the aim is to integrate in the society and in the working life.
00:26:11
Jasmiina
Like, however, I must say also that some of my students, if they already have like better brain based or injury based, like, you know, since birth or do an injury, there are some students, they are part time that they won't be able to anymore work full time.
00:26:38
Jasmiina
So they get compensated for that through the benefits from the state.
00:26:45
Jasmiina
So that's.
00:26:46
Jasmiina
Yeah, so then also kind of but have integrity in that and still be able to kind of contribute to society.
00:26:53
Jasmiina
And I think it's hugely valuable for society as far as for the individual to have that.
00:26:59
Jasmiina
And then there is always the work that the individual needs to do with that, like finding the meaningfulness and value in that.
00:27:08
Jasmiina
So, yeah, there's many sides to that.
00:27:10
Jasmiina
And also some of the students who graduate from here do, do further education in mainstream institutions is quite rare, but it does happen.
00:27:21
Jasmiina
So then this might be the case, like, for a student who does that, it might be the case that they, they gained during the studies with us in our program, that they gained kind of study skills, you know, that they didn't necessarily gain in the mandatory education because there was not enough support and there was not enough time for that.
00:27:45
Jasmiina
So then when they start, when they get some age, they get older, they get more knowledge about themselves, they maybe get some rehabilitation, they get the study environment, and they start to gain skills of like how to survive, for example, in an education program being, for example, neuro atypical, then sometimes it becomes possible then to go to mainstream after studying with us.
00:28:12
Silva
And you are saying that a part or like a big part of education is to gain agency.
00:28:18
Silva
And I think as a person with a disability, when you gain agency, you learn how to advocate and ask more for yourself.
00:28:26
Silva
So that's like a beautiful, like, knowledge that is gained through this dance education that then can further you in your life, in society at all times.
00:28:38
Jasmiina
Yeah, I do think.
00:28:39
Jasmiina
I think that's always my.
00:28:40
Jasmiina
That's obviously not in our curriculum because the curriculum is made by that ministry of education and kind of like, you know, that's.
00:28:49
Jasmiina
But for me, it's always like, goes side by side with the curriculum to teach the students to be aware of their special needs and to be able to articulate what they need in a constructive manner.
00:29:03
Jasmiina
And then all the sudden, like, different environments that were not accessible before become accessible just because of the skill, basically what you were saying also.
00:29:13
Jasmiina
So then sometimes it does become possible to do further studies in, like, in university or elsewhere.
00:29:21
Jasmiina
Like further studies.
00:29:23
Jasmiina
Yeah, that's.
00:29:24
Jasmiina
Yeah, that's.
00:29:24
Jasmiina
I think that's one of the main reasons why it's good to have like a segregated education, because it's very hard to do that in a fully, like, if the special needs students are fully integrated in the mainstream schools, because this is also a big question in Europe and in Finland at the moment.
00:29:44
Jasmiina
And there is quite a big pressure to take all the states on students to mainstream schools, mainly because of financial reasons.
00:29:53
Jasmiina
But it's said that it's kind of for value and political reasons that they want to integrate the specific students more.
00:30:02
Jasmiina
But it most often does not happen if you don't get enough resources and space and knowledge for the teachers to actually offer this growth in the agency of, you know, finding your place.
00:30:17
Jasmiina
And whereas we can do that better because we have like a peer group where they can study and exchange knowledge and we have more kind of specialist knowledge.
00:30:29
Jasmiina
Right.
00:30:30
Silva
And like you said, there's also your peers that can support and help you and understand you in a more deeper level then maybe not in a mainstream education would.
00:30:40
Silva
But I wanted to ask, you were saying that the curriculum is from the ministry, so you're not teaching different curriculum everything.
00:30:51
Silva
The support is within the structures on how to learn and how to.
00:30:58
Silva
How to submit your assignments or.
00:31:01
Silva
Right, but your curriculum is the same than any dance education in this level, right?
00:31:07
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah, it is.
00:31:08
Jasmiina
There's like four vocational dance degree programs in Finland and we one of those five.
00:31:15
Jasmiina
And we have the same curriculum that it's kind of like, you know, I have to stick to the curriculum because.
00:31:23
Jasmiina
But it's also like the, like because it's quite a small amount of people, like, I was able to influence, among others, other department heads the curriculum content that we are able to influence that.
00:31:39
Jasmiina
And so it's kind of like not unfinished.
00:31:42
Jasmiina
Like, I feel the curriculum is good.
00:31:45
Jasmiina
Good.
00:31:45
Jasmiina
And kind of like, how can I say up to date it renewed every five years and, yeah, it's that curriculum.
00:31:55
Jasmiina
And it's sometimes, as I was saying before, sometimes there's like a component or kind of modules in that curriculum that I modify for a student.
00:32:08
Jasmiina
Then I mark that.
00:32:10
Jasmiina
It's called like a modification in degree, like term, like in our finnish, like the education system.
00:32:22
Jasmiina
You can modify if the student, because of a need, special need.
00:32:27
Jasmiina
If they.
00:32:28
Jasmiina
They cannot.
00:32:29
Jasmiina
If they unable to do something, then you can modify that.
00:32:33
Jasmiina
And what to say for an example?
00:32:36
Jasmiina
Like I say example that is not actually in the curriculum, but for example, if there is a wheelchair, let's say this is.
00:32:45
Jasmiina
I just invent this now.
00:32:47
Jasmiina
Like, let's say there is like a cleaning job and you become a professional cleaner.
00:32:54
Jasmiina
And then you're a wheelchair dancer, you're a wheelchair cleaner, you're a wheelchair person who is.
00:32:59
Jasmiina
Is doing this cleaner job.
00:33:00
Jasmiina
And in that degree, you have to do staircases.
00:33:03
Jasmiina
Clean the staircases.
00:33:05
Jasmiina
Then you would modify that.
00:33:07
Jasmiina
Okay.
00:33:07
Jasmiina
This person cannot clean the staircases, but they are still professional cleaner.
00:33:12
Jasmiina
So things like this in trans life, it's more often not so clear.
00:33:19
Jasmiina
Like not so, but it can be, for example, cognitive disability.
00:33:23
Jasmiina
Like, let's say that the person has difficulty in.
00:33:30
Jasmiina
In mathematic formulations and they need.
00:33:33
Jasmiina
There is a certain level.
00:33:35
Jasmiina
If it's like a developmental issue, then they will never get certain things, for example, mathematical things, they will never be able to do.
00:33:48
Jasmiina
Then I can do this modification that they can do everything.
00:33:51
Jasmiina
If they get assisted in this mathematic parts, for example, as a part of the curriculum, they have to do like budget for a project.
00:34:03
Jasmiina
And there's some students who sometimes cannot do budget, and they will not be doing budgets in working life either.
00:34:10
Jasmiina
So then I do this modification that this person can do everything else in this curriculum.
00:34:15
Jasmiina
But in budget accounting, they need assistance or assistance or they will skip that.
00:34:24
Jasmiina
They don't do budgets, but they do everything else.
00:34:27
Jasmiina
So that's like a modification.
00:34:29
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:34:29
Silva
Yeah, that's really.
00:34:30
Silva
That's really neat.
00:34:32
Silva
I mean, it's really neat.
00:34:35
Jasmiina
Yeah, that's quite easy to do.
00:34:36
Jasmiina
Also.
00:34:37
Jasmiina
I think that's something people are afraid of, these curriculum modifications because they think they are really hard to do, but they're not so hard to do.
00:34:45
Jasmiina
Like, because you get that you have also, like, doctor statements of the students, you know, ability in certain things.
00:34:53
Jasmiina
Like, usually it's quite clear, like, you know, like what you can, for example, this pot setting or staircase thing.
00:35:00
Jasmiina
Like, you know, it's quite clear.
00:35:01
Jasmiina
Okay, this person can be professional.
00:35:03
Jasmiina
They can be.
00:35:04
Jasmiina
Have skills in all the other things, but this is not possible.
00:35:08
Jasmiina
So here you just that out or do that.
00:35:12
Jasmiina
And I think it like in a future, like I think it would be nice if or great to go towards that also in the future, education and in university studies would be a bit more easy to modify to just like do if you need to do small modifications, for example for a wheelchair dancer or something.
00:35:32
Jasmiina
But then often it's like, yeah, people are a little bit maybe think it's more difficult to do than it actually is.
00:35:39
Jasmiina
Just a couple of bureaucratic papers to do and you know, and then it's marked in the degree and that's it.
00:35:47
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:48
Silva
That's really, really.
00:35:50
Silva
It's really neat.
00:35:51
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:35:52
Jasmiina
But most rare to do.
00:35:54
Jasmiina
It's quite rare.
00:35:55
Jasmiina
Most of my students do the full curriculum like maybe like 10% as modifications.
00:36:02
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:03
Silva
And I love it that it's the same because then when you go into the work field and you meet other students who have gone in other vocational schools to get this dance degree, you still have the same experience and you can speak the same language in a way because your curriculum has been the same.
00:36:22
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:36:24
Jasmiina
And it gives you the same rights for further education because this is like vocational.
00:36:28
Jasmiina
You can do, for example, if you want to do dance teacher studies after this, because this is like a dancer's degree.
00:36:37
Jasmiina
Like then for example, you cannot do dance teachers degree if you do not have a prior degree.
00:36:45
Jasmiina
So they also get this access to education for the ones who goals are there because the goals are really individual.
00:36:57
Jasmiina
So for some of the students, the goals like this is their final aim and goal.
00:37:03
Jasmiina
And then after this to find a job that suits them and be able to do that.
00:37:08
Jasmiina
But for some of the students, the goal is to do further studies.
00:37:13
Jasmiina
Then this gives the actual possibility to do that.
00:37:17
Jasmiina
Because if this would not be a degree programme, then they don't get the access to go.
00:37:22
Jasmiina
And it also raises your salary level.
00:37:25
Jasmiina
Like it's a degree, you know, it's a day, it's.
00:37:29
Jasmiina
Yeah, for me it's important somehow.
00:37:31
Jasmiina
And even though I thought about, I talked before about like being interested in dance and body mind practices and what they do to your kind of health and kind of consciousness and kind of.
00:37:46
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:37:47
Jasmiina
Kind of sense of.
00:37:50
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:37:50
Jasmiina
Self knowledge, I suppose.
00:37:51
Jasmiina
But then I still, because this is vocational degree, I do want to be quite clear, even though I see that it does good in many levels for the students who are here, it's still a vocational degree.
00:38:05
Jasmiina
Like, it's not the dance therapy degree or rehabilitation course, it's a course to actually follow the curriculum and gain the professional knowledge to be able to work in the field.
00:38:19
Jasmiina
So it's.
00:38:20
Jasmiina
Yeah, that's somehow, I think that's if it would be otherwise it would empower in a different way.
00:38:27
Jasmiina
But now it empowers in terms of, like, gaining vocation, you know?
00:38:32
Silva
Right.
00:38:33
Silva
It actually has a societal impact.
00:38:36
Jasmiina
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:38:37
Silva
Yeah.
00:38:38
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:38:39
Jasmiina
And even if the students would go, you were asking, like, where they end up.
00:38:43
Jasmiina
Like, some do work with companies, inclusive dance companies.
00:38:47
Jasmiina
Like here is, for example, the Gauze company.
00:38:51
Jasmiina
And there are certain choreographers who work with inclusive dance practice teachers.
00:38:59
Jasmiina
And also over the years, there are choreographers who come and work with the students here, or the students go on to internships and work life experience in different dance companies.
00:39:09
Jasmiina
So then people sort of learn to know them and learn to know their skills.
00:39:15
Jasmiina
And then there is this, like, some students do go and work in the.
00:39:19
Jasmiina
In the arts field and freelance field.
00:39:21
Jasmiina
And then for some, the goal might be that they want to, for example, be in after school club teaching dance part time.
00:39:30
Jasmiina
And that's.
00:39:31
Jasmiina
They, like, that's their.
00:39:34
Jasmiina
That brings meaning and that brings sad and that brings, like, belonging.
00:39:40
Jasmiina
And that's their goal.
00:39:41
Jasmiina
Like, the goals can be very different.
00:39:43
Jasmiina
And that's one thing I find really beautiful, that the goals don't have to be the same in this way.
00:39:51
Jasmiina
And some students do another.
00:39:53
Jasmiina
Like, they combine this with, for example, with this sort of.
00:40:01
Jasmiina
No other words again, they are like, well, like more like economic.
00:40:05
Jasmiina
Like doing like some sort of economic knowledge on site.
00:40:09
Jasmiina
And then they combine with that.
00:40:10
Jasmiina
And then some combine with caring jobs or caring, further education.
00:40:17
Jasmiina
Caring.
00:40:18
Jasmiina
So they might work with elderly people and dance, or they might work in different kind of community based projects with different groups.
00:40:30
Jasmiina
So then that's also quite.
00:40:32
Jasmiina
Quite common to do, like, two vocational degrees, like one in dance and one or nursing or something else, and then combining, like, those to do some sort of work with different.
00:40:46
Jasmiina
Different groups and instructing dance.
00:40:50
Jasmiina
That's also one where some of that.
00:40:53
Jasmiina
I think some of the students are kind of drawn towards that also because it brings them to meaning in this way of sharing and using maybe their own experiences also to kind of empower others.
00:41:08
Jasmiina
And then some are really inclined towards making art.
00:41:12
Jasmiina
Making, you know, making art.
00:41:14
Jasmiina
And I.
00:41:15
Jasmiina
Yeah, I support them all.
00:41:17
Jasmiina
I think it's.
00:41:18
Jasmiina
I think it's great.
00:41:19
Jasmiina
People have different goals.
00:41:21
Silva
Yeah.
00:41:22
Silva
What is it something, Yasmina, that you still wish in the future that would happen or that would improve or something that you are your goals for this program?
00:41:33
Jasmiina
What are some of those yeah, I mean, things are good at the moment in many ways.
00:41:43
Jasmiina
I think it's great that the program is running.
00:41:47
Jasmiina
I think it would be great to have fluency in how people find this meaning that there would be more accessible hobbies in dance.
00:41:59
Jasmiina
I'm going more accessible, yeah.
00:42:02
Jasmiina
Like from early age to be able to access art, like making dance and making art, because quite often the students who come to us, they, some of them have been able to train dance before and some of them have not have access to train dance that much before.
00:42:23
Jasmiina
So they trained in the living room, you know, and then they crate and then they come to us.
00:42:27
Jasmiina
And where did you train?
00:42:28
Jasmiina
I was like, in my living room.
00:42:30
Jasmiina
Like what?
00:42:33
Jasmiina
Yeah, but, yeah, to have, like, that side of things, it's kind of like how people.
00:42:38
Jasmiina
How people have access and who has access to dance and then also the path outwards to have this little bit, what I already said, that would be just a tiny bit more kind of openness towards doing these small modifications or having knowledge in the higher education that people can go on and do.
00:42:57
Jasmiina
For example, academic careers.
00:42:59
Jasmiina
Because, for example, I have students near typical or autism spectrum who are super smart, but they just neurotypical.
00:43:06
Jasmiina
And they have it very hard to be in a mainstream medication, even though they totally have the intelligence and the skills for it.
00:43:14
Jasmiina
So just a tiny bit of understanding there.
00:43:17
Jasmiina
And like, not understanding, but understanding of like, oh, modification is not so hard.
00:43:22
Jasmiina
Or actually individualized study plans are not so hard to have that kind of like knowledge.
00:43:30
Jasmiina
And then, of course, working life, that it would be a bit easier.
00:43:34
Jasmiina
For example, at the moment, there's this trapped in the working life a little bit that like, if you get some benefits because of your disability, then it can be hard to combine that with earning money from a job because when you earn money from the job, they got your benefits.
00:43:51
Jasmiina
And then people are often forced in a position where they do not take salary from a job because they fear losing the benefits.
00:43:59
Jasmiina
So just some like, these are like political wishes, like, just to make it always kind of, like, always kind of like support people kind of making and earning money and not putting in these traps that they need to choose whether they take a job or not.
00:44:20
Jasmiina
And these kind of things.
00:44:22
Jasmiina
Of course, it's lovely to have international exchanges.
00:44:25
Jasmiina
We have quite a lot of partners and people who we work with in different countries, like in Sweden and.
00:44:34
Jasmiina
And in Europe.
00:44:35
Jasmiina
And I have my background also in working life in UK.
00:44:40
Jasmiina
And it's always nice to not so much with us.
00:44:42
Jasmiina
You guys have such a little bit different education system than us.
00:44:47
Jasmiina
But there are links because I think there is strength in collaborating and sharing knowledge because you get a lot of leverage when you negotiate things in the your country.
00:45:00
Jasmiina
Like if you get this, like, yeah, it's not possible.
00:45:04
Jasmiina
You're like, it's possible because they did it also, you know, like, you get leverage in negotiations.
00:45:11
Jasmiina
Yeah, these kind of things.
00:45:14
Jasmiina
And have it like running smoothly and people finding it, then I think it's going good.
00:45:21
Jasmiina
I'm very happy about where it is now, but I think they're always like, where to take it.
00:45:26
Jasmiina
It's in this like towards kind of in the crazy and towards this sort of fluent pathways from all the way to hobbies to working life, you know, and we are there in the between offering the vocational knowledge.
00:45:47
Jasmiina
So.
00:45:47
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:45:51
Silva
But you were saying about the international collaborations and sharing knowledge with partners and peers around the world.
00:46:01
Silva
And so Liva is also doing something like that in this fall.
00:46:06
Jasmiina
Yeah.
00:46:07
Silva
Tell me a little bit about the include seminar.
00:46:10
Jasmiina
Yes, that is happening in October, the 7th to 10 October.
00:46:16
Jasmiina
And I heard you have also like a network meeting around the times or maybe they're going.
00:46:23
Silva
Big gathering in fourth through 6 October, but I hope to jump in a plane on 6 October and be there on 7 October.
00:46:32
Jasmiina
Oh, wow.
00:46:33
Jasmiina
Yeah, that would be great.
00:46:34
Jasmiina
And also we're gonna gather some of the key speakers and some of the panel discussions and workshops in an online platform so we can share that.
00:46:47
Jasmiina
And yeah, we have a dance company spin from Sweden and fine five dance company from Estonia who are the main partners in this one, but then also a lot of other collaborators from Europe who are coming.
00:47:05
Jasmiina
And it's aimed towards professionals working in inclusive dance practice, whether as artists or pedagogues in any kind of position.
00:47:16
Jasmiina
But this time we thought we aim it to towards professionals and also to kind of mainstream producers or production houses who sort of want to program more inclusive program or do or take into account in their hiring processes, like more inclusive practices, because this is like something that people are at the moment quite aware of in Finland and also we knowledge for that.
00:47:52
Jasmiina
So that's sort of this kind of platform for exchange include feel free to reach towards us here in Europe and in Finland.
00:48:02
Jasmiina
We do have these education programs and there's always different ways to collaborate and organize further education and empower and fight agency in our practices.